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Ill health HR and Unions!.

mellman01mellman01 Posts: 5,303
Well it’s been over 3 years and I have finally gone above my union reps head and asked to see/talk to someone from the union who specialises in employment law especially for someone like me who’s covered under the DDA or now the DA’s.
Not sure if they can help but I feel that seeming HR have asked the company Doctor 3 in times in as many years about ill health retirement then there should be some feedback by now, I have also asked the union rep about asking the HR department but all he said was he’s going to wait until October when they are going to announce what date the place I work at will be closing, the shortest time scale will only be 6 months and this to me is to little time to get things rolling, I am starting to wonder if the rep is tossing me off and has been all along, and has no intention of pushing the issue as deep down he thinks I’m winging it, he’s made the odd derogatory comment in the past and talks down to you and never agrees with anything I say anyway and he changes his story all the time..
Anyway he might be right and is just hoping that if he leaves me as I am that I will be left till the end but why not push for ill health when it would be the best financial outcome for me, as he says I tick all the boxes but the company doctor isn’t the type to sign it off, I find this slightly odd as in the company pension rules it states if your health breaks down and they can’t offer you any other work it’s automatic retirement!.
Talk about up poo creek here, I don’t want to piss him off but I have a gut feeling he’s seriously dragging his feet here.

Comments

  • mellman01mellman01 Posts: 5,303
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Yeah your right on this one Del ill health is a better deal, he seems to be waiting for HR to force the issue but I'm not sure their in this together and are both taking the rise, I've just been back from a long bout of sick expecting to be put up to level 3 incapability Union said level 2 was when it would all start happening but then after my level 2 review he said level 3,but since I've been back there's not a peep from him or HR, actions or lack of threm speak louder than words.
    Also I'll look into house cover so thanks.
  • cebeemcebeem Posts: 477
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I'm soon going to be heading down the same road Mel!

    Do you have the Area Convenor involved?
    I have a family member who recently retired from this job and knows all aspects of the procedures etc...!

    Its one of those ...paid in all my working life...so show me what you can do situations.....so the area convenor should be involved after 3 years.

    Regards
    c
  • amboriticamboritic Posts: 66
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Haven't been on the forum for a while as involved in my own battle with a very large NHS Trust.

    What I will say is that Unison are next to useless, never had much help from them in the few times I have asked for assistance.

    I have been sacked on Capability Grounds and asked to work my Notice period, which was nice of them!

    I also had a bit of a mission getting OH to get their finger out.

    However I finally got all my AW33E (I think) sent off to NHS Pensions in the middle of July, and got back a letter a couple of days ago saying that my Tier 1 IHR was accepted, no appeals, or arguments. Which i was expecting after reading stuff on various forums.

    So 20 yr Pension here I come.

    A bit of a weight off my mind, amazed at how quick it was in the end.

    Though I suspect I may have been lucky.

    Well if you can call be riddled with RA and Spondylosis lucky that is.


    Some folk at work have said I am better off out of my particular NHS Trust as i have been on the recieving end of a long period of harasessment and bullying by management for several years now.

    But to be honest I just want to be fit to continue with my job, how stupid is that.

    I shudder to think what will happen to people in my position whewn the Ambulance Trusts get privitised, which they will within 10 yrs.

    The big plan is massive Ambulance stations on the outskirts of the big Cities staffed by private staff and the only proper "Ambulance Service" will be the control room and possibly the HART and Decon specialist units.

    The number of time served staff sorting themselves out with an escape route is truely scary.

    New, young keen, Uni educated degree Qualified Paramedics is a nice idea, but who is going to put them right for the first couple of years whilst they find their feet out on the road.

    Hope you have better luck with your Union than I did OP.
  • janie68janie68 Posts: 1,186
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Amboritic

    I am about to go through the same thing, witj my nhs trust.

    If I go off long term sick again, will I have to get my ill health forms in first?

    What medical evidence did you provide? Sorry to hijackthis post,

    Perhaps you would be so kind as to pm me?

    Thanks

    Janie
  • amboriticamboritic Posts: 66
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I was actually on long term restricted duties when I decided to apply for IHR.

    No help really from management or Unison.

    Was promised a guarantee that I would not lose any money if they couldn't find me restricted/light duties, in front of mr Unison Rep, when I ended up on half pay for several months nothing was said.

    I applied for as it was obvious I was not getting redeployed and would lose the house if I was on half or no pay again.

    After I applied for IHR they started capability procedures and I was actually sacked but asked to work my notice.

    The proof I gave them was a very short and to the point letter from my GP, I think a GP like mine that doesn't mince words is an advantage, I had a letter from my NHS Consultant(Rheumy) and a Private(Rheumy) Consultant from Harley Street, there was also several reports from Occy Health since the accident the appeared to be the trigger for my RA, wether I had it already who knows but I became symptomatic shortly after in the area that I had injured(thoracic spine and cervical spine).

    And a report from an A/E Consultant, I think that was to do with an injury I sustained in 2002 which caused long term problems and he hinted in 2002 that my career in frontline work was limited by that injury.

    I had also been seen by several Senior NHS Physios, one of whom actually arraged the blood tests that discovered the RA.

    The last and most senior Physio had done a long report that was also included.


    I think the fact that I have never hidden anything from Occy Health was in my favour, but the fact that my job is certainly the most physically demanding in the NHS has almost certainly made IHR the only way forward.

    After reading several forums, including one more focussed on Fibro(I also have suspected Fibro), I though it was going to be a nightmare to get my IHR, but after the long delay in getting my Occy Health Dr to complete my AW33E form and send it off(two months!), my form went in and I got the letter saying I was accepted within a couple of weeks.

    I was shocked to be honest, when I opened the letter I initially thought it was the letter saying that my application had been accepted, like a proof of delivery, rather than my Pension being authorised.


    I personally think that the more information you give them then the better off you will be.

    Part of my training when I started working for the NHS many years ago was that if it wasn't written down then it didn't happen.

    I think this way of thinking has definately helped me.

    My advice would be don't suffer in silence, take full advantage of any Occy Health provision that is available.

    I think that if you have no problems then within a few months of diagnosis you go straight for IHR then they form the opinion that not all options have been tried and therefore you are at risk of being sacked for capability, thus losing your ability to qualify for a Tier 1 IHR.

    Though I also think that if you do a job without manual handling then you may find it difficult to get IHR, even Tier 1.

    For example my OH Dr still says I am fit to do light duties with reasonable adjustments, which I think I am, but the days of doing 60 or 70 hrs a week are over for me, and the pension will allow me the flexibility to work more normal hours, say 30/35 hours a week in a non physical job but still be able to pay my bills.

    Though the way I have been feeling lately, ankles, wrists and both knees giving me a lot of pain, that my working life even in a non physical job may be limited.

    I am anything if not stubborn, I was still working on a Rapid Response Car in London just over a year ago, even though my knees where strapped up and at break times I was using my TSE machine (anybody that doesn't recognise that name it is a kind of more powerful TENS machine, Pain Clinic recommended that years ago for my neck)


    I must also apologise for the slight thread hijack.


    I just wish my Union had been some help, I think they are pretty much either in managements pocket of in fear of their jobs if they make a big fuss.
  • janie68janie68 Posts: 1,186
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Thanks Ambortic for your quick reply

    I already have consultant report which advises no work at all, but I think ill get a gp report as well to back my application.

    I got my forms today and a pension forecast which was surprisingly good for ihr, I think the trust will start the final review when I put my forms in. I just hope that the final review takes its time and I get a decision before my notice.

    I have tried everything to keep in work, and my latest anti tnf (3rd) is failing so I am getting ill again, so its now time

    Thanks again

    Janie
  • yarisyaris Posts: 96
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    mellman01 wrote:
    Well it’s been over 3 years and I have finally gone above my union reps head and asked to see/talk to someone from the union who specialises in employment law especially for someone like me who’s covered under the DDA or now the DA’s.
    Not sure if they can help but I feel that seeming HR have asked the company Doctor 3 in times in as many years about ill health retirement then there should be some feedback by now, I have also asked the union rep about asking the HR department but all he said was he’s going to wait until October when they are going to announce what date the place I work at will be closing, the shortest time scale will only be 6 months and this to me is to little time to get things rolling, I am starting to wonder if the rep is tossing me off and has been all along, and has no intention of pushing the issue as deep down he thinks I’m winging it, he’s made the odd derogatory comment in the past and talks down to you and never agrees with anything I say anyway and he changes his story all the time..
    Anyway he might be right and is just hoping that if he leaves me as I am that I will be left till the end but why not push for ill health when it would be the best financial outcome for me, as he says I tick all the boxes but the company doctor isn’t the type to sign it off, I find this slightly odd as in the company pension rules it states if your health breaks down and they can’t offer you any other work it’s automatic retirement!.
    Talk about up poo creek here, I don’t want to piss him off but I have a gut feeling he’s seriously dragging his feet here.


    Hi I have been off work since dec 12 with oa off the knee had X-ray etc
    Been occy health doctor he asked for blood test which I done
    He phoned me today and said I think you have torn cartridge but X-rays are there to see .oa he told me to go to my doctors and demand to see a consultant .but my doctor wants me to have phyosio first um getting fed up with doctor occy .my doctor says I will be medical retired um not sure ho it all works can you help.
  • yarisyaris Posts: 96
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    mellman01 wrote:
    Well it’s been over 3 years and I have finally gone above my union reps head and asked to see/talk to someone from the union who specialises in employment law especially for someone like me who’s covered under the DDA or now the DA’s.
    Not sure if they can help but I feel that seeming HR have asked the company Doctor 3 in times in as many years about ill health retirement then there should be some feedback by now, I have also asked the union rep about asking the HR department but all he said was he’s going to wait until October when they are going to announce what date the place I work at will be closing, the shortest time scale will only be 6 months and this to me is to little time to get things rolling, I am starting to wonder if the rep is tossing me off and has been all along, and has no intention of pushing the issue as deep down he thinks I’m winging it, he’s made the odd derogatory comment in the past and talks down to you and never agrees with anything I say anyway and he changes his story all the time..
    Anyway he might be right and is just hoping that if he leaves me as I am that I will be left till the end but why not push for ill health when it would be the best financial outcome for me, as he says I tick all the boxes but the company doctor isn’t the type to sign it off, I find this slightly odd as in the company pension rules it states if your health breaks down and they can’t offer you any other work it’s automatic retirement!.
    Talk about up poo creek here, I don’t want to piss him off but I have a gut feeling he’s seriously dragging his feet here.


    Hi I have been off work since dec 12 with oa off the knee had X-ray etc
    Been occy health doctor he asked for blood test which I done
    He phoned me today and said I think you have torn cartridge but X-rays are there to see .oa he told me to go to my doctors and demand to see a consultant .but my doctor wants me to have phyosio first um getting fed up with doctor occy .my doctor says I will be medical retired um not sure ho it all works can you help.
  • EmilyEmily Posts: 124
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    mellman01 wrote:
    Yeah your right on this one Del ill health is a better deal, he seems to be waiting for HR to force the issue but I'm not sure their in this together and are both taking the rise, I've just been back from a long bout of sick expecting to be put up to level 3 incapability Union said level 2 was when it would all start happening but then after my level 2 review he said level 3,but since I've been back there's not a peep from him or HR, actions or lack of threm speak louder than words.
    Also I'll look into house cover so thanks.

    I had a rep with me at meeting when I was pushing for adjustments my GP has recommended that I be left in one job for an hour and then changed to another one due to osteoarthritis, my union rep at that meeting know better and said that was not good for the company and it should be 2 hours in one job and then be moved to another one. What kind of representation is that..I had a feeling that my manager felt sorry for me having someone like him representing me at that meeting. He started off the meeting with giving out his card to the managers at the meeting, what a s!!t he was....

    I soon left them as they were taking my subs and doing damage to me as well. BTW that was the GMB, I want to my bit for them. I wish I could get my subs back from them as they were taking it under false pretences. :x :x
  • tanithtanith Posts: 175
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Got to say that I had nothing but good advice from my Unison Rep, he came to any meetings I asked him to, consulting with me before hand so we were both 'on the same page', we took breaks from meetings so he could make sure I was fully understanding what was going on and what the repercussions would be of certain decisions , helped me with form filling etc and advising me what benefits I would be able to claim if my request for IHR was granted, which it was. This was from an Ambulance Service and I was allowed to continue on light duties while this was all going on. I was very grateful as I honestly hadn't a clue how it all worked . I realise not every rep is so helpful .
    Our worst times are always our best lessons.
  • EmilyEmily Posts: 124
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Tanith

    That is great that you got this service, but as you said not all unions officals are the same. My firm is not unionised and the union jerk came to a meeting with me he first of all he started off by giving out his card that said that he was an organiser on behalf of his union. My firm is a big one and he wanted to please the managers. the meeting started off OK but when I brought up my GP medical certificate saying that I should change role every hour the union jerk said ‘no’ it should be every 2 hours. He also wanted me to be put in a job that was in an part of the firm which would have been devastating for my health, the reason he wanted that done was becasue he had done this before for pone of his members and it worked OK, what a wally.

    Both the union jerk and my manager were acting as medical professionals at that meeting I got not help whatsoever from the union jerk, in fact he was very damaging for me as well at that meeting as he signed the notes that one of the manager took and they were not correct and were damaging to me as well. I wanted to correct them but he said no... everything was OK.

    The union I was in before then this union jerk knew the HR manager well, and when I took to a grievacne he was delighted to see HR manager and said they go back years. I think they were an item before the way he acted towards her, so no help from him either. He was not going to go against his ex and that was reflected in the way he handled my case.
    Just look at Tesco that’s his union has there are members posting on another website saying that as soon a member of staff are made reps they are made managers, how convenient is that. :x :x :x
  • tanithtanith Posts: 175
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Emily I know its a bit late now but I would of asked for a different rep if you weren't happy with the one you had. The rep I used even asked me if I wanted someone else to deal with my case as we had actually worked together at some point , and gave me names and phone numbers of any number of other reps including his direct superior should I feel the need to change my rep.
    Our worst times are always our best lessons.
  • EmilyEmily Posts: 124
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    tanith wrote:
    Emily I know its a bit late now but I would of asked for a different rep if you weren't happy with the one you had. The rep I used even asked me if I wanted someone else to deal with my case as we had actually worked together at some point , and gave me names and phone numbers of any number of other reps including his direct superior should I feel the need to change my rep.

    I did ask for a different rep to no avail, I think when a firm is not unionised they do not care and I lost confidence in them now. Members expect them to be helpful when in need and you do not want to have to keep chasing them for help as it was with me. I was exhausted with my employer and could have done with out having to chase union as well and them not looking after my interest as well. :x :x
    My problems now is that my employer is not paying me for time I have been off ill due to them not making adjustments for me. Manager told me that I did not keep in contact with him and they said that I was to back to work and they would be getting the equipment ie purchasing it as it was approved but when I read the notes made at that meeting it said the equipment was approved but 'not agreed'. That mean that they will not be getting the equipment and I will be left high and dry.
    I know I will be bully when I go back and I do not want put myself at risk. :cry:
    Should a very large employer be short of money, the equipment that I need is less than £200, the salary they have stopped from me is much more than that. :x :x :x
  • maria09maria09 Posts: 1,905
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Hi
    Im thinking of going down the ill health route I too work for the NHS
    I only work 2 days aweek due to my arthur & finding it increasingley difficult to function at work
    Im on my feet for the full 8hrs which is a nightmare as at min my feet are the problem
    Been off sick 2wks now but really cant see how I can work as my workload is heavy Ive fought this for so long but after 9ys I have no fight left
    I would be grateful for any help & advice you all can give me
    Please PM me if you prefer
    Thank you for listening
    Maria
  • janie68janie68 Posts: 1,186
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Hi Maria

    Sorry that you think the time has come. First of all, get an ill health forecast from your trust pensions office. That will give you an idea of what you'll get if you retire. Then go to see OH, and explain how it is for you. You might want to tell your Consultant too of your wish to retire, as they can write a report for you as evidence for your application.

    OH should then send you to the OH dr, they will get a report from your consultant anyway.

    If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me, I retired last month on tier 2 pension & I finally get my pension Friday. Hurrah!

    Good luck

    Janie
  • maria09maria09 Posts: 1,905
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    janie68 wrote:
    Hi Maria

    Sorry that you think the time has come. First of all, get an ill health forecast from your trust pensions office. That will give you an idea of what you'll get if you retire. Then go to see OH, and explain how it is for you. You might want to tell your Consultant too of your wish to retire, as they can write a report for you as evidence for your application.

    OH should then send you to the OH dr, they will get a report from your consultant anyway.

    If you have any questions, please feel free to ask me, I retired last month on tier 2 pension & I finally get my pension Friday. Hurrah!

    Good luck

    Janie
    well done on getting your retirement Ive had a pensions prediction so know what Im entitled to. Will think more seriously about it after my operation on Monday
    Would it be ok if i could pm you?
  • janie68janie68 Posts: 1,186
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Yes, that's fine, good luck for your operation!

    Janie
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