RA with inflamatory disease related to heart disease

earthspirit

http://zeenews.india.com/news/health/health-news/root-cause-of-inflammatory-diseases-discovered_17757.html

scientists have already found links between gum disease and the potential to heart disease linked to RA. i personally have spoken to dental consultants at teaching hospitals who believe this to be the case and where a constant gum infection, not even enough to cause gums to bleed, could be a triggering factor for RA.

kids can have gum disease from early age and therefore the potential for future damage is there from an early age.

stickywicket

I did try reading the article but got blinded by all the scientific terms I didn't understand (Possibly because, at school, I got chucked out of science lessons more than any other :oops: )

Insofar as I did understand it, I didn't think it was saying much that was new. We know people inherit a tendency towards auto-immune diseases and that these have to be 'switched on'. It didn't tell us how to flip the switch back again :roll: I remember my very first rheumatologist telling me that, in RA, the body attacks itself in that the cells get together to fight infection and then just carry on scrapping, long after the original infection is gone. I got the impression this article was, basically, only re-stating that, possibly with a bit more depth.

earthspirit

you could be right sticky but some of the links to heart disease sound like they are on the right track and surely its better that people are aware that such things as gum disease sore throats etc can be a possible trigger to RA and also allow the inflamation to continue. ive had slight underlying infection and raised white blood cell count for decades but never presented with any infection etc......doctors say this was a sign that should have been further investigated but nobody ever did.

i agree that they dont know how to switch it off but surely if they find what switched it on the cure would then be easier to find.

stickywicket

I guess I'm just a bit of a cynic, earthspirit. When I was first diagnosed I was told a cure was 'just around the corner'. That was 51 years ago. It doesn't mean to say that a cure isn't just around the corner now but that's irrelevant to me.

I think it's important that docs know "that such things as gum disease sore throats etc can be a possible trigger to RA" but, for the rest of us, maybe it'd just make every sore throat, especially in our children, a nightmare. I'm all for facing facts but facing potential facts...? No, I've enough on.

Of course I agree that "if they find what switched it on the cure would then be easier to find."

dreamdaisy

I agree with Sticky, these theories are floated, sunk, re-floated, adjusted but the truth is no-one really 'knows' hence the need for continued research. I love reading all the 'health' advice in the press, red wine is good for you, a fortnight later red wine is bad for you, toothpaste is carcinogenic, a little later it isn't, supplements make all the difference, supplements are useless just eat a better diet. My all-time favourite of these is the death of Jim Fixx. He 'invented' jogging to help prevent death from a heart attack. He died of a heart attack whiilst out jogging. I think he was only in his fifties. DD

earthspirit

ok points all taken.

however........most people over 18 will suffer some form of gum disease at some point. many people have gum disease but if you dont get an abscess or some other painful condition of the mouth, you may totally unaware that you have gum disease. regardless of how you may feel, your body and immune system are continually dealing with this infection and ultimately this can affect the heart, as well as being a possible trigger for RA. its a real situation where the immune system is having to work extra hard.

if all people with RA had extensive dental treatments doing root cleaning etc, this could have some effect on the disease and how it progresses. for anyone struggling with treatments for RA or having many flares and pain, perhaps a good first defence would be to have a full mouth halth check. as you age, the gums naturally recede a bit and it is physically impossible to clean deep beneath the gum yourself, so the gum disease continues, leading to more infection floating around in your body.


the way i feel is that having some mouth treatment could be of benefit in overall health and may decrease some symptoms naturally. there dont seem to be any reports denying the existence of a connection just not enough research into the obvious connection

salamander

Of course dental hygiene is important. However, anyone who sees a dentist should be aware of whether they have gum disease or not.
The links between gum disease and heart disease have been known for a very long time. Certainly when I was nursing in the 70s.

I've never had gum disease so not an explanation for my condition.

Are you a dentist by any chance?

earthspirit

hi salamander no i am not a dentist

however i did have an issue following a dental blunder in my mouth and ended up being seen by a teaching professor. i had also developed a huge pain in my jaw ear and along the jawline of my teeth and this amazing guy tried to find out what the cause was. i was used as a bit of guinea pig and was an interactive patient for people doing post graduate studies.

they had me under all sorts of testing in maxofacial unit and neurology clinic as they knew this was something more than facial nueralgia. DOCTORS has ruled out any form of arthritic pain and it was all being blamed on a dental issue so it was there i had much of the investigation done.

after 4 years i was finally given a dx of rheum A and then it all became quite obvious to the dentists & doctors that all this pain was due to a RA flare and during this time i learnt about the connections between gum disease/heart disease and RA as these are the guys doing some of the actual studies.

i did not even know that teeth had joints and that they too could have flares - had i known this i might have saved a few teeth from my upper jaw which i insisted on having removed, evn though there appeared to be no physical reason for such intense pain.

so no im not a dentist but when you have got to first name terms and years of helping in research, you start to learn of things that arent widely available to the public unless they google such things.

we sometimes describe RA as like having toothache in the joints - try having ra in the teeth lol

salamander

I'm sorry to hear you had teeth removed unneccessarily. I thought you sounded as if you had specialist knowledge.

earthspirit

the tooth issue is a very very sore point mentally for me salamander, to the point where its more mentally stressful than dealing with RA. ive had to learn how to emotionally detach myself from the problem and focus on saving and building a credit score to allow me to fix the **** ups made in my mouth and by my own self destruction of teeth, so that i can finally get some implants.

on a brighter note and as a random general knowledge input - when people have cancer of the mouth or jaw, the teeth are often surgically removed prior to surgery and then later replaced in the mouth so that the patient does not suffer the trauma of having missing teeth in the mouth. i know a lady who does this job - small dainty and really pretty and looking more like a beautician than a dentist. her nickname among staff is slickhand jo, so great is her expertize in carrying out this procedure!

salamander

Yes, it must be a difficult thing to deal with but we have to put these things behind us sometimes. We all make mistakes but usually act with the knowledge we have at the time and we have to respect that.

Good luck with the saving plan for implants, you will join the great and the good, such as Martin Amis, who have had them done!

Colin1

Well i done some reading over the past some years. Since havin been diagnosed with RA and PsA
I had most of my own teeth still no false ones but since being diagnosed i have lost at least 10 teeth and had gum problemy
Lung Problems
Heart disease
Voice box throat and mouth problems
Liver Problems
2 heart attacks
Colin

tillytop

Hello Peeps

I have reported this post - maxam neutraceutics (user name) are an american health supplement company who have been in trouble (surprise surprise) with the US FDA for illegal marketing of their products.

Tillyx

[Deleted User]

Hi Tilly thanks i too think it is highly suspect and am going to ban and delete this post.
Mod for friday and Saturday

mig

Sorry earthspirit but I think you are talking a load of old bull,but that's just my opinion.Mig

scattered

I fail to understand how one makes the link between this article and gum disease being the cause for RA. As far as this article is concerned there are malfunctions in white blood cells and certain enzymes that may kick start the inflammatory process. It does not mention that they malfunction in relation to a particular infection or disease.

I think it is widely accepted that there may be an infectious trigger for inflammatory conditions, but there is very little knowledge about which particular infections and why. The link between gum disease and heart disease is well known, and only recently a study came out that stated RA patients are more likely to have gum disease than the general population (arthritis research UK, August 9th 2012), but researchers dont know which is the cause and effect: did the patients already have gum disease and went on to develop RA, or did having RA make them go onto develop gum disease?

I think any infection could be the trigger for any inflammatory condition and trying to pin it on gum disease seems like the easy answer to a complicated question. If it was that simple I think the researchers would be pouring their efforts into that rather than searching for the proverbial needle in a haystack.

Still, the article shows there is progress in the right direction.

7worlds

I dont have the time or energy to worry about how or why i got RA. The fact is, i do have it so i just have to get on with it. Will it cause other problems? Probably, but analising the causes and worrying if i should or shouldnt have done anything in the past aint gonna make a blind bit of difference to how i deal with it now :roll:

7Worlds

earthspirit

mig lol
you are entitled to your opinions of course
where in science can you show that bateria from gums does not raise the inflamation levels in the body?
our bodies have this continuous fight from the infection circulating in our blood.
how can you say with surety that this is not the trigger for RA?

how do you know that maintaining optimal gum & tooth health does not help the RA as in preventing flares.

dreamdaisy

There was a series of QI where the answer to at least one question was 'Nobody knows' and I think this theory comes under that. It may be an explanation but who the hell needs that? I'm with 7worlds on this - I have what I have and I have to get on with it. It won't be fixed, it won't go away and I am not the slightest bit interested in why I have it. The fact is I do. End of. DD

skezier

Hi Earthspririt,

I think sometimes they try too hard.... they don't know but at the same time teeth and gum disorders are never good as they can do a lot more than just rise your white cell count....

Dentists are good at picking up either likely or there problems mind....

I kinda with Mig... I don't care how I got either the pa, the crohn's, the oa etc ,... I just concentrate on not letting them b***er up my life too much. For me its the only way.

As to what may come.... I don;t go there now a days as, for me, the future isn't exactly a good place to look at..... There here and now is what matters and the conditions I got ... what ever the reason they are there (and I was born with some so they couldn't be gun disease related) is all the challenge I need

I do a half decent ostrich but that's a better way for me at least.

I agree with Scattered post as well and at least they are doing some research but would rather they concentrated more on how to help it than how you might possibly have got it ... without animal testing of course Cris x

LignumVitae

I only skim read this article and like Sticky, I spent too much time prattling around in science to take much in, however I am a researcher so I can make links. I understand a link between heart and gum disease, failed to pick up a link between gum disease and RA from the article or research. I have inflammatory arthritis and my old consultant always told me risks were worst from stomach infections, then throat infections and then others. My understanding from this was that it was the specific bacteria from those types infections that triggered a specific inflammatory/immune response from the body and this response was more likely to trigger a flare. Beyond that I'm not sure how valuable looking backwards is. I'm more interested in treatments because chances aren't high that they will pin point a single source/ reason for RA so looking back has limited use unless you can screen entire populations and by that all you do is identify at risk groups as opposed to cure people. Dental hygiene, along with good overall hygiene is important but I'm not sure how much higher a priority it is to a sensible diet, appropriate exercise, reducing stress on the body through not smoking/ eating rubbish/ over doing things. Just my opinion but not sure this research makes a big difference to us or those in the future who may be us.