Magnesium

Jen

Is anyone finding magnesium helps at all ?

Magnesium supplement about half hour before bed is supposed to help with sleep, I was taking this before but stopped it before I had my blood tests done recently and one of the tests was for magnesium deficiency.

You can get magnesium oil which you spray on to the area also I am just going to apply that before going out for a walk.

The magnesium (Epsom salts) Bath or foot soak is also suppose to help, but you need to rinse it off after a 20 - 30 min soak as it can cause dryness of the skin if you don't rinse I have been told.

I may need to start doing these things more frequently with a flare to get better results.

Looking forward to hearing from anyone.

Jen

stickywicket

I am way past the stage when I believed vitamins and dietary supplements might help. According to the NHS we should all be able to get all the magnesium we need from a healthy diet which includes:

green leafy vegetables – such as spinach
nuts
brown rice
bread (especially wholegrain)
fish
meat
dairy foods

I hope the test shows no deficiency.

barbara12

Hello Jen
My OH is an heating engineer so can be under floors and on his knees, he buys bags of epson salts, and says it really helps his aching joints..now I find its helps with my hands, but in the bath I don't feel much relief, maybe its diluted more than it should be, I do know it is used in America with good results..

Jen

Hi stickywicket

I do have a good diet.

I don't have confidence in drugs even though I have to take them for another health issue, they do interfere with nutrient absorption and can cause other health issues as you mentioned you had experienced yourself in the previous post.

Finding out the cause is helpful. At least if the blood test show deficiency its something that can be corrected. I am just grasping at straws hoping to find the cause and it's a simple one to correct.

Thanks stickywicket fingers crossed

Jen

Thanks Barbara. How is your OH and yourself using the epsom salts?

What dilutions etc?

thanks Jen

barbara12

The bag we buy is pure Epson salts..and it weighs 1kg..oh puts half a bag in the bath,so it doesn't go very far,but when I use it ..in goes a couple of small cup fulls..when I soak my hands or feet I use the same...but in a bowl of hot water...hope you get some answers from your results...

hileena111

Hi
I've tried epsom salts in the bath...jhalf a packet like it says
It didnt make much difference to me but we are all different.
Never seen the spray???
Let us know if that works for you
Love
Hileena

stickywicket

Hello again, Jen. I guess, if you have a good diet you should be OK.

My own osteoporosis isn't just due to my RA meds. Other factors will be – the RA itself, genetic predisposition (My Mum had it in later years), chemo after my mastectomy and early menopause brought on by the latter. (I guess the chances of my NOT having it weren't too high )

I don't quite understand what you're trying to find the cause of :? If OA, who knows? (unless you have a previous break at the site). If osteoporosis, you can find potential causes on NHS Choices. If magnesium deficiency, is it confirmed you have this? If so, your GP could advise.

I understand an aversion to prescription meds and I try to take as few as possible myself but I am also wary of supplements as it's quite possible to cause just as many health problems and / or interactions with these.

dreamdaisy

Those of us with auto-immune arthritis have to be very careful with supplements because of possible interaction between the natural poisons and the manufactured (which are based on the natural). I ensure I have a good intake of Vit.D to help my bone density, eat a varied but for-the-most-part healthy diet and take my meds as prescribed. The nett result is that one form of arthritis has been slowed whilst the other carries on regardless but as that is what it does I can't complain. King Canute thought he had some trouble . . . . . DD

Jen

Thanks Barbara and heleena, the epsom salts foot soak is bliss while it lasts. I used one large yoghurt beaker in a bowl, probably about 3 cups full.

This morning having to revert to ibugel on the area though.

Stick, finding the cause of the OA flares would be useful or even why the OA developed in the first place. I am a believer in things happening for a reason. If all hormones, body chemistry is in balance, all nutrients absorbed and utilised proficiently there wouldn't be these kinds of problems in the physical body. The nature of the illness is inflammation so to find the trigger of the inflammation would be extremely helpful so the correct course of action can be taken, of course each person's trigger or cause is bound to vary from individual to individual.

It is very much like one man's cure is another man's poison or one med may work really well for one person but not or even make things worse for another.

A pity DD the meds are not helpful for both your arthritic conditions but a relief that they are helping one of them. Do you think DD that your bone density is directly connected with your arthritis ?

thanks all.

dreamdaisy

No, for me it's nothing to do with either of them and there are plenty of arthritics without osteoporosis or osteopenia (sp? I'm using the forum as a distraction technique but draw the line at finding the dictionary.) It was raised as a concern because thinning bones is one of the side-effects of the oral steroids (they thin every tissue in the body, not just the naughty ones) and indeed the very early signs were there in my right hip (as shown by my first DEXA scan). Once I stopped the steroids the bones strengthened. QED.

Anything we try to alleviate the discomfort is bliss whilst it lasts (baths, hot water bottles, ice packs, massage, hot wax, acupuncture, reiki etc.) but as none of these deal with the underlying issues the relief is always short-lived. Once the damage is done it's done and the only thing to repair matters is new joints (if appropriate). My late mother used to swear by Dr Scheussler's (I think that was the name) bio-chemic tissue salts and of course they helped her because she had no chronic health issues whatsoever. 'Health is the crown to a well man's head but only a sick man can see it' is apposite to those of us who have to live with these conditions. DD

stickywicket

My OA gets temporarily worse in direct proportion to how much I've overdone things. The RA, on the other hand, flares at will, thankfully very rarely these days but the only obvious culprits were / are stress, some other infection and / or becoming tolerant of the current meds regime.

We do have some knowledge of why the auto-immune arthritises arise – usually a genetic predisposition encounters an unknown trigger. There is some thought that some people's OA might also have a genetic component but it's very early days for that.

My own view is that with all hormones in balance and nutrients thoroughly absorbed, things will still go wrong. We live in an imperfect world and our bodies are imperfect parts of it. Immortality, thank God, is not for us. If it were we'd have an enormous population problem on our hands

(Ah steroids! Yup. In listing the factors pre-disposing me to osteoporosis I'd forgotten those little monsters.)

Roadback

This post has been removed as it concerns highly technical information and links, all relating to studies of people with vitamin D resistant magnesium dependent rickets, being inappropriate to this forum

Mod B

Jen

Thanks Roadback, I enjoyed reading your post I will check out the links for sure.

Thank you also for sharing what is helping you through flares. I have to say I have found Selenium ACE is useful, on about the 3rd day things seem much easier.

The osteocare supplement I may take as an alternative to the Calcichew D3 Forte also has manganese, selenium, zinc etc. I posted about the osteocare supplement somewhere already its one the moderator editor to say its a sales site but I just posted the link so people could view the supplement content in each 2-3 tablets. so you can view where you might double up on things. The D3 amount is quite small but I already top that up as I was previously deficient and now I have to just work on keeping the levels topped up which are through supplement and sun exposure when I can get it .

I had a conversation with a nutritionist not so long ago who recommended taking the Magnesium on an empty stomach before bed with the zinc. As he said absorption was better when magnesium was taken away from any food or other supplements (except zinc), yet the osteocare supplement has many different vitamin and minerals including the magnesium and zinc and calcium vit D3 etc etc.

I couldn't take the zinc on an empty stomach as it caused acidic conditions which I don't usually have, the magnesium I can take on an empty stomach ok (the nutritionist recommended magnesium dyno mins which has anti acid).

I am not taking magnesium at the moment as I am waiting to check in with the doc about recent blood results, magnesium deficiency is being tested also thyroid.

Its a science in itself with the supplements and we wouldn't need to think about them so much when we eat healthily, if it wasn't for some of the prescription drugs that interfere with nutrient absorption. I feel prescribing such drugs to patients, the patients should also be referred to a nutritionist to counteract the drug interference in nutrition.

Thank you once again Roadback, its appreciated.

Jen x

Jen

I've just checked the links both are very informative, thank you again RB

Roadback

Hi Jen

Looks like my info was zapped by mods - apologies to mods if i was being over technical. Shame though as it took a good hour - but at least you saw it beforehand and was useful.

Main point (without technical links) was really that Magnesium works on lots of systems in the body including vitamin D synthesis - and that deficiency of magnesium is shown in studies to accelerate Thymus shrinkage (which happens as we age anyway :? )

Interesting what you say about Magnesium as I take it at night too - another friend who takes it says it helps her anxiety.

I was given my supplements by a nutritionist many years ago and I have pretty much stuck with them. She told be that selenium was an antioxidant against mercury.

Jen

Hi RB

That's strange about the removal of information as I had just updated myself on the Rules and Terms this evening and I understood that you could provide information from another site with a short copy as long as the links were included, I seem to not be understanding very well the situation.

Any way I am glad I saw it before it was removed too and I have shared the links with a friend in the US also

Its funny how things change, years ago I took selenium ACE to help me with another health issue, the supplement was recommended by the charity set up to help people. Back then it was advertised as helping arthritis but now its promoted as immune health supplement, my body obviously likes it to respond as it does. It says on the box I have, its a protection of cells from oxidative stress which is why I guess its helpful to me when I have a flare.


With the magnesium I found I do sleep better when taking it, there are lots of reviews from people on amazon who have found it helpful for many problems so I can believe it works on many systems in the body.

There is lots of information connecting joint pain with magnesium deficiency but I guess its one of those things where something may help one person but not another.

Thanks again RB its good to chat with you

Roadback

Hi Jen

I would love to stick around and help others by explaining how I have greatly improved my arthritis with diet changes and supplements - And backing it up with links - however...

I've just been told that I am posting stuff that is too technical and got a first and final warning - I think linking to reports and studies might not be worth it without a layman's terms explanation - I can't waste time posting stuff that gets deleted by mods. So if they are saying I can't do this - I think I will say au-revoir and may as well ban myself.

I haven't given any directives - [edited to remove comments detrimental to the aims and ethos of Arthritis Care]
Doctors get 2 weeks diet traing at medical school.

[Edited to remove comments detrimental to the aims and ethos of Arthritis Care]

I urge you all to research the links between diet and/or bacteria in arthritis - this post will be deleted.

[Edited to remove comments detrimental to the aims and ethos of Arthritis Care]

I am studying for a degree in nutritional practice [Edited to remove comments detrimental to the aims and ethos of Arthritis Care]

I'm out of here! I've just resigned - Roadback...

Jen

Sad you are going RB

I just saw your post in diet and nutrition (replied there and pm)

thank you for the help and I will check the links between diet and/or bacteria in arthritis

I've not heard of methotrexate induced intestinal permeability, I will look into that as well, although I don't have any gut problems (only when I attempt to take the drugs)

Best wishes to you in your studies for your degree in nutritional practice. I shall be sorry to lose your help and I wish I had come here sooner to have exchanged more with you.

I hope you will keep in touch,
My very good wishes.

Jen

ps I've copied content

stickywicket

It's always sad when people decide to leave the forum because different voices are useful in giving different perspectives. I confess, roadback, I could only rarely understand the links you gave but you yourself made the dietary case informatively.

I know there has been much research on the relationship between diet and auto-immune forms of arthritis but nothing conclusive. And, if I remember correctly (which doesn't always happen :oops: ) roadback does have an auto-immune arthritis whereas Jen has OA so what is helpful for one might not be for the other.

Our Mods do a difficult and unenviable job. One of the dangers of a forum like this is that many newly diagnosed people come on here scared of their diagnosis, worried about their future and also terrified of the meds. They feel the latter, at least, is in their control and then attempt to try anything and everything that will mean they don't have to take the DMARDS. However, it has long been known that early intervention provides the best prospects and recent research has confirmed that. Indeed, I'm a living example of what too little too late can do to one's body as DMARDS weren't around when I was first diagnosed. These are powerful meds, however, and no-one should casually supplement them with over the counter pharmaceuticals or dietary supplements. Informed medical advice is required.

I'm almost certain that Arthritis Care has no connection whatever to any drugs companies and it was an unkind slur to suggest that their advice might be prejudiced by such a connection. Nevertheless, Roadback, I wish you well in your studies and your life with arthritis.

Jen

SW - its been known for over 20 years that diet plays a part in RA and other arthritis, and other health illness. I have a book over 20 years old that states it, its madness to think food cannot help in inflammatory conditions when there is so much evidence already certain foods help calm inflammation and other foods aggravate. Even arthritis care state what may not be helpful regarding food, its just a pity its not stated what may be helpful

What I find most unhelpful is so many closed minds about what may, could or can be helpful to some people with arthritis. If people believe it cannot help them that is up to them they don't have to read anything about food or supplements that may help or be of benefit.

Food can be medicine and that is fact. The body cannot survive without good nutrition and becomes ill when there is deficiency that is also a fact. All our nutrition, vitamins and minerals come from food and water, where the soil is lacking or food has lost its nutritional value through inorganic spraying or been tampered with as in GM of course there will be sickness in those who eat such food if the nutritional value is insufficient. For years there was GM soy in our foods, sauces, soups, baked beans and the public was not told, so for years parents were feeding their kids with GM food, now we are informed about this and can make choices for ourselves about whether we continue to consume it or avoid it.

Of course people can overdo supplements, and of course it is advisable to seek professional guidance, if the blood is tested for deficiencies, if some seek the advice of a professional nutritionist. If individuals are sensible and guided by how their body reacts, the body will soon tell what is helpful and what is not if we are sensible about such things. I apply the same thoughts to drugs as well as supplements and I have blood checks also, all these things are helpful if we use our intelligence about ways that can benefit us.

BBC and itv have presented information on medical and science research on food as medicine and also provided myths and facts. How anyone can possibly be closed minded about it 'all' I do not know.

Its only a question of finding out what each individual is deficient in or which food they need to eliminate. I am not saying it will cure I am saying it can be helpful to a person, help them manage the health issue better, help them avoid food which may cause increased flares, help them to find out if they have a deficiency and get the advice on the dose which may be helpful to them.

Wheat and gluten are just examples in health issues that some people may have or be intolerant of.

To disregard what may be helpful for some even though it may not help all is being very limited in help and support. So is a persons beliefs on what may be technical. Just because it is for one does not mean it is for others. I had no trouble understanding what I read from the links RB provided and I do not know if someone who likes to discredit information other's post reported such content just because their belief was different or limited.

I have to say I am disappointed in this site and what people are trying to censor because their ideas are fixed in mind and not flexible. Its not helpful to hide some of the picture when some can benefit.

Those who are not interested in helping themselves in this area don't have to try and discredit what may be useful to others even when it is not so for them. Help and support for ALL

With such closed minds going on I just cannot believe the moderators are allowing members to discredit what could help some people.

Even if this forum was just for people with RA, censoring this way, discrediting this way is still going to mean some people with RA will not be informed of the whole picture, which may or may not be helpful to them, the opportunity to investigate such matters should be the individuals alone, not a censoring body in a forum such as this.

Btw these are my own words not copy pasted from anywhere else and so I am not providing links to back up what I have said.

I am annoyed about all this. A person who could be most helpful here to many lost because of a handful of closed minds.

daffy2

Arthritis Care, in common with many other such charities, has to be careful what appears in the public domain under its 'umbrella'.
I think there are ways of pointing interested people towards different or alternative information and viewpoints, given the existence of the internet and the option of the pm route, without coming into conflict with the Mods.
It can be frustrating I'm aware if a person feels that s/he has an important message that is not being heard, but again there are other platforms to use surely if it is felt to be that important?

Jen

I've had no help from those who oppose, there are ways to avoid conflict one is not jumping on the bandwagon, be helpful, non judgememtal and keep on topic.

I found roadback's post helpful to me yet because of those who oppose the information which could have been helpful to others has been removed I have objected to the removal.

People should be able to make their own minds up on things. We are not children needing molly coddling or needing to be dictated to what is ok to read. Even when the moderator decides to remove something there's absolutely no need for others to keep harping on about it, if you persist in having your say on my post which does not relate to my original post, then be prepared for me to have my say in response.

For those who opposed its inappropriate and disagreeable that you keep dragging this out.

I have requested previously:-
Please refrain from my posts unless you are responding to the original query (on topic) Do not persist in continuing to flame this situation, I think that is in the forum rules