E.U. In or out – the facts

stickywicket

Most people feel they need more information and facts about this and less propaganda.

The BBC is doing its best though not all outcomes can be predicted so not all answers can be as clear as the two campaigns would have us believe. It's worth a daily read, though.

http://tinyurl.com/htqyvgb

daffy2

For me, anything that starts off by saying 'EU - the facts' gets ignored. One thing that has been conspicuous by its absence is factual info. There have been a lot of statistics scattered about, but that's not the same thing.....

theresak

You've been reading my mind, Sticky - I almost put up a post yesterday re the should we/shouldn't we EU question.I need some impartial advice before I can vote. Each ' side ' is scaremongering , which I don't need - just the salient facts would be good. I will look up your link, so thanks for that.

frogmorton

Maybe it's too subjective for an 'impartial' opinion??

So-called facts and figures can be manipulated by both sides.

I think no-one really knows what the outcome might be either way. How can they as time travel hasn't been invented yet

Meanwhile......

Kitty

I'm anxious about what impact it will have on the farming community. On listening to Farming Today, it would appear that even the farmers are unsure as to how it will affect them. So what chance to I have? :?

stickywicket

Ouch! I see I hit a few raw nerves there

I think the BBC really is trying to establish what are facts, how 'facts' are being manipulated and what the true outcomes of any given situation may or may not be depending on what is taken into consideration and what happens.

Eg Boris' claim that the EU only allows bananas to be sold in bunches of two or three is just plain wrong whereas the claim that leaving the European Union would lead to an increase in air fares is dependent on on what agreements we could reach with the EU and other countries.

Some things can't be clear because outcomes depend on other outcomes but, if we can get rid of some red herrings and learn what factors influence which outcomes, surely that helps us to decide?

I rather liked the guy on last week's Question Time who said everyone was debating the economic arguments but no-one seemed interested in the ethical ones. The MPs all agreed solemnly that the ethical arguments were very important indeed and then, without offering any, went back to the economic ones.

Slosh

I agree that the BBC are doing their best to give facts, there was an interesting segment on either Today or PM last week where they took statements and claims made by the two sides and presented them to experts in each field to explain fully. It was very interesting

Airwave!

I have just been to a meeting about the referendum, Nigel Farage, Tim Martin (Weatherspoons), Kate Hooey and Drax, very interesting.

These four people were convinced that trade will not alter since it is market forces that create trade not politicians. China does 300 billion euros of trade with the EU, all without any trade agreement, the USA does 200 billion euros worth of trade with the EU without any agreement so thats 500 billion worth of trade by market forces alone.

If you want to pay 10,000 eurocrats to run your life then vote in. The EU wants closer pollitical ties, why would we not want GB to have it own parliament and do the job that we have a vote in, our democracy that took a 1,000 years to mature is being given away. What our forebears sacrificed themselves for has already been given away to unelected beaurocrats.

For the first time electors are being asked for their opinion, vote Brexit and have Great Britain returned to a democracy!

stickywicket

I was rather hoping just to direct others to a site that was trying to clarify the issues in a non-biased way rather than to argue for either campaign.

If you follow the link, Airwave, you'll find it deals with several questions about trade. Some basic conclusions are:

“The UK could continue to trade with the single market following an EU exit, but we do not know on what terms that trade would take place because that would be subject to years of negotiations.”.

We would also have to re-negotiate trade deals with "about 50 non-EU countries" and “some would be easier than others.”

It doesn't mention China but does tell us “The United States sells into the single market but there are no common safety standards for goods such as fridges or cars and tariffs and quotas may be imposed on its products.”

rondetto

Trading won't change, we always traded throughout Europe before the EU.
Fact is £28 million is paid from the UK into the EU every single day.
It is actually a lot more than that but I take into account a small rebate.
Our borders need to be closed down or we face this small island to be massively overcrowded with essential services not being able to cope with the influx.
Look at the many thousands of war graves around Europe and consider what our kin faught for in two world wars.
Many questions to ask before anyone decides the future of our little island.

[Deleted User]

On a personal note, I have been following the discussion and have found the web site Full Fact.org to be a great resource for unbiased information:

https://fullfact.org

Best wishes
Mod Bryn

barbara12

Well I will vote out then hopefully we can keep the money we give to the EU and use it for Britain..what we voted for years ago we didn't get..and are far worse off ...I know its not that simple but that is what they want..total confusion..

rondetto

Maybe off the topic here but this morning I was waiting for the Nat west to open and there were two ladies talking ahead of me.
Conversation went like this:
1: A family of foreign people have moved in next door to me.
2: The council housed them then?
1: Yes and she was telling me they have given them £3000 to furnish the house.
2: Really, I didn't know they did that.
1: Oh yes and they've given him £4000 to buy a car to look for work.
It went on but the bank opened and I didn't hear any more. But
it occurred to me that we have paid into the system all our lives and don't ask for anything. I wish I could be given money for new furniture and a new car.

stickywicket

Rondetto, this is simply gossip, not facts. I was hoping we could stick to facts.

moderator wrote:

On a personal note, I have been following the discussion and have found the web site Full Fact.org to be a great resource for unbiased information:

https://fullfact.org

Best wishes
Mod Bryn

Thank you, Mod Bryn

I'd heard of this site in relation to something else but couldn't remember the name.

It looks very good indeed. So easy to stay properly informed about the truth of what's being claimed.

I've had a look and signed up for emails.

Slosh

I'm with you Sticky, facts not spin are important. I have pretty well made up my mind but will look at that link.
Just one thing to add, I recently met up with an ex-pat friend who now lives in the USA and has always been cued in to economics and business.
She said tht a lot of big American coporations are hoping for Brexit and are making plans to invest.
Good news you might think, lots of jobs and money coming in to the UK.

But
They reason they are waiting for Brexit rather than investing now is that EU laws around employment and discrimination (including disability ) are stronger than theirs.

Two sides to every point.

dreamdaisy

There's no doubt that this is the biggest decision of my 'political' life, I was too young to vote when we joined (am I right in thinking there was a referendum then?) but I shall gladly put my cross now. I know which way I am going but I will still find out as much as I can from both sides, trying to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Surely the truth (as they once said on QI) is 'Nobody knows!' what either leaving or staying will bring to the UK. Staying will undoubtedly bring further costs to us as taxpayers but thereagain so could leaving.

I love overheard conversations, one favourite took place years ago on a London bus: 'We're in love but that's as far as it goes.' DD

daffy2

Surely the truth (as they once said on QI) is 'Nobody knows!' what either leaving or staying will bring to the UK.

And this I think is a pretty fundamental problem. At best we have informed conjecture. At election time we at least have a pretty good idea of likely outcomes from the two parties involved based on previous experience.
Two main things concern me about the Brexit option.
1 Our politicians and jobsworths have had 40 years of using the EC/EU as a scapegoat/excuse/reason to over-regulate. How would they manage without that?
2 What are the chances of the money currently going to the EU being used for anything worthwhile/necessary in this country?

barbara12

daffy2 wrote:

Surely the truth (as they once said on QI) is 'Nobody knows!' what either leaving or staying will bring to the UK.

And this I think is a pretty fundamental problem. At best we have informed conjecture. At election time we at least have a pretty good idea of likely outcomes from the two parties involved based on previous experience.
Two main things concern me about the Brexit option.
1 Our politicians and jobsworths have had 40 years of using the EC/EU as a scapegoat/excuse/reason to over-regulate. How would they manage without that?
2 What are the chances of the money currently going to the EU being used for anything worthwhile/necessary in this country?

Well said daffy ..they are on wages we could only dream of ..and will cling to these for there life...I do think that people need longer to make up there minds..

doofer

Interesting post, I've more or less made up my mind about this, but what I find with all the information is the amount of *monoply* money that's put to us, I just can't convert it to figures I can make sense of, billions and trillions don't make sense to me

Airwave!

One big fact that turned up, if we vote 'out', then how can the Tories stay in government? Politicians expect a general election to be called soon after.

But who would you vote for, the MP's who are are campaigning for Brexit are not numerous enough to form a parlimentary party, would this invite new blood into the fold and government?

Vote out and no more Tory or Labour as the most populous parties? Either that or they would have to change their tune very quick.

Exciting times.

stickywicket

Airwave! wrote:

One big fact that turned up, if we vote 'out', then how can the Tories stay in government? .

I don't see how this can be a 'fact'. Cameron would almost certainly have to go as Tory party leader but there are several Brexiteers in the Tory party who would be more than willing to take his place.

The next General Election isn't due until 2020 under the Fixed Term Parliaments Act 2011. There can be an early dissolution of parliament if 2/3 House of Commons votes for it but turkeys are not noted for voting for Christmas.

Slosh

The truly frightening thought is that if the outcome is to leave the EU, Cameron will resign and the likely candidate to replace him is Boris Johnson.

That means there is a real chance of a "special relationship " between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump!

Now that's scary

barbara12

Slosh wrote:

The truly frightening thought is that if the outcome is to leave the EU, Cameron will resign and the likely candidate to replace him is Boris Johnson.

That means there is a real chance of a "special relationship " between Boris Johnson and Donald Trump!

Now that's scary

:shock: :shock:

Jen

If you didn't watch it, you may want to go to iplayer for Paxman's take on it:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b07c6n58/paxman-in-brussels-who-really-rules-us

its well worth watching I think.


Or straight to the horses mouth: http://www.eu-facts.org/en/index.html



If you haven't got a pain already you may have after reading the 2nd link ha ha

:too-hot:


As far as I know the vote on the EU referendum on 23 June is if you want in or out of EU. I don't believe we are voting for political parties. According to BBC;

" How do you vote?
It will be a similar system to that during other elections. Firstly, if you have registered to vote, you'll be sent a card telling you when voting takes place and where you should go to vote on 23 June. On that day, when you go to the polling station you will be given a piece of paper with the referendum question on it. You then go to a booth, which will have a pencil in it for your use. You then put a X in the box which reflects your choice and put the paper into a ballot box. Alternatively you will also be able to opt to vote by post. Read more: Electoral Commission's guide to applying to vote by post. "
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32810887

Jen

Airwave! wrote:

One big fact that turned up, if we vote 'out', then how can the Tories stay in government? Politicians expect a general election to be called soon after.

But who would you vote for, the MP's who are are campaigning for Brexit are not numerous enough to form a parlimentary party, would this invite new blood into the fold and government?

Vote out and no more Tory or Labour as the most populous parties? Either that or they would have to change their tune very quick.

Exciting times.

The tories can stay in government but I think Cameron stands down.

Airwave!

Neither of the main parties has a mandate to lead the country out of the EU or has made any policy decisions or have anything in their manifestos, both have thrown their lot in with the 'stay' campaign.

Hardly a parliament that is waiting and willing to follow the will of the voters?