A new begining

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Comments

  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    It's not just the East of England that will struggle with their harvesting, places like the Vale of Evesham and the Cornish early flower growers will have problems. The fact that much of such labour is seasonal, and will not meet the £30K income requirement, isn't going to help either, and there's no hope of indigenous labour filling the gap - it's not so much migrants taking 'our jobs' as 'us' handing them over on a plate - it started being a problem round my way something like 10-15 years ago.So much for food security, environmental concerns etc.
    Another serious issue is the lack of capacity in the building trades - it's already a drag on speed of delivery of all those new homes successive governments have been promising for years. Be interesting to see what, if any, effect that might have(coupled with financial market jitters) on the rash of speculative development applications in unsuitable and unwanted places. Be good if that were to slow down!
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Yes, I did get what I wanted, I would have prefered a slightly different style to it though. Ah well, it'll all come out in the washing.

    Apart from our humourous views on life a more serious note would read about the ridiculous position that our politicians find themselves in, I'm thinking 'up' and 'brewery' as for DC's sympathy seeking speech in Brussels today.......

    and will the labour party breakup spawn a new party?

    I haven't been so excited about politics for years!
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I'm hoping that it might make a few folks realise what's been happening in politics in this country in the last few years, and that if they want things to change then they have to put the effort in, most obviously by voting whenever the opportunity arises,but also making contact with and challenging at all levels from town councillors up to MPs.
    I think it's come as a real shock to many people that neither 'side' had made any sort of plans for what happened after the referendum, and that the MPs, far from leading the country forward through difficult days ahead, appear to be in a flotilla of directionless craft adrift on a veritable sea of ordure - when they're not tearing their party to pieces that is.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I couldn't agree more, daffy.

    The 'all change' business would, indeed, be fascinating, Airwave, if we could view it totally dispassionately but our two main parties are so busily navel-gazing that the Queens' Speech and business of actually governing the country seem to have been forgotten.

    Farage appears to believe that his 'Ya boo, sucks to you, losers' tactics will induce the EU to give us any terms we request ("Golly, yes, you were right, Nige. We're so sorry.") and, for the first time in my life, I am – uncomfortably – in full agreement with Michael Heseltine when he said on Newsnight (I think) that Johnson and Gove took us out so they must sort out the mess. (Sorry, terms.)

    Given the SW's imminent removal to Scotland, I am comforted somewhat by the standing ovation given by the EU members to Scottish MEP Alyn Smith when he said “Scotland did not let you down. Please, I beg you, do not let Scotland down now" That might be interesting.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Daffy, you are quite correct, our population should have taken more care of the poltitics happening around them on a day to day basis, holding them to account. They have been social engineering for far too long.

    Yes, we are in a pickle and it has been going on for so long and we have let them get away with it. Might that be preferable to civil unrest? Or has the balance just gone too far?

    Most of all I would like our referendum decision to be respected and not watered down.
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Airwave! wrote:
    Yes, we are in a pickle and it has been going on for so long and we have let them get away with it. Might that be preferable to civil unrest? Or has the balance just gone too far?
    Most of all I would like our referendum decision to be respected and not watered down.
    It concerns me that we are approaching the silly season, which needs little excuse to kick off antisocial behaviour - and the current confusion and lack of progress is a pretty big excuse I would suggest.
    The referendum decision may be respected but whether that translates into Article 50 etc. is another matter....
    My son is looking into his British/Dutch nationality options(father is Dutch), one sister has Scottish by virtue of 25 years residency I believe if necessary, sister in Holland will get her British passport renewed against possible problems continuing to accept work in the UK(her children have British, US and Dutch nationality so should be covered!). I had Scottish grandparents and Portuguese great-great aunts, neither of which I suspect give me options!
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I was frankly amazed to discover that a friend is checking out her Irish granny for passport eligibility purposes. Her daughter, married to an Irishman, is applying for Irish passports for their two children.

    Airwave - what do you mean by 'watered down'? I don't think there's any real desire for a 2nd one.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Watered down, weĺl there are so many possibilities, for this we will have to wait and see what the politicians offer us as their recipe of what we want.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I think a big problem is that it's hard to work out what people wanted. Some wanted fewer immigrants, some wanted 'freedom' from the single market and perceived EU rules, some wanted the mythical 350(?) million and some, as they've now said, just wanted to register a protest against the government and all politicians.

    I envy no-one who is trying to sort that one out.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Trying to sort out what people want, or what they thought they were actually voting for, is something that political process will have to deal with via elections, which is a better way(though with our FPTP system not ideal in terms of representation) to register dissatisfaction with how the country is being governed. The Brexit vote is what it is, and has to be dealt with as such. Whether that means protracted negotiations and years of uncertainty, a swift cutting loose and masters of our own destinies, a better version of what we've currently got - who knows? Certainly not those politicians who landed us in this position.
    Some of you may have seen the Yes Minister clip that's currently doing the rounds about the UK/European relationship. I'm inclined to think that a re-run of the series might have served the electorate better than the misleading and political campaigns.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    daffy2 wrote:
    Some of you may have seen the Yes Minister clip that's currently doing the rounds about the UK/European relationship. I'm inclined to think that a re-run of the series might have served the electorate better than the misleading and political campaigns.

    Haven't seen the clip but couldn't agree more, daffy.

    Plus, the series was probably far better researched than the campaigns.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Sticky, just google yes minister brexit. It does make for painful viewing in some respects, but you have to laugh.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

    Wonderful stuff, daffy. What a brilliant series it was.

    http://tinyurl.com/jfcason
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • tkachev
    tkachev Member Posts: 8,332
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I voted to remain because I felt the economic upheaval would be too big a price to pay and that remains to be seen. Most people I know seem to have voted leave because of immigration issues and seem unconcerned about anything else.



    My Children are 4th generation Swiss. Unfortunately I have to go back over 300 years for my Scottish roots.

    ps; yes minister has been on the yesterday channel for the past couple of months.

    Elizabeth
    Never be bullied into silence.
    Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
    Accept no ones definition of your life

    Define yourself........

    Harvey Fierstein
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    This is a fast moving story, Johnson out, Gove in, I would suggest a three way race (Gove, Fox and May), but then attempting to predict politics might get a bit messy!

    Behind the Tories attempts to find a new leader is of course the Labour party who seem to be getting their knickers in a twist and they've always been very good at choosing the wrong leader.

    Underneath the skin of our democracy lies chaos! Time for a strong leader.
  • tkachev
    tkachev Member Posts: 8,332
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Can't say I like any of the Conservative candidates. They are all nasty and uncaring. At least the EU tried to keep them in check.
    Never be bullied into silence.
    Never allow yourself to be made a victim.
    Accept no ones definition of your life

    Define yourself........

    Harvey Fierstein
  • GraceB
    GraceB Member Posts: 1,598
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I've been reading this thread with interest. I firmly believe that how people vote is between them and the ballot box, so I'm not saying how I voted. Suffice to say, I'd made my mind up last year how I was going to vote and nothing I heard in the run-up to getting my postal vote caused me to change my mind. My late partner John also had the same views but, had we differed, we would have respected each others' opinions.

    I'm aware of a lot of younger people in my family voted in the referendum but had never voted before.

    I became aware of the petition and a thought struck me. I understand it referred to less than 75% of the population eligible to vote actually doing so and calling therefore for the referendum result to be classed as null & void. Years ago in committee meetings the meetings had to be "quorate", i.e., if 12 were on the committee a minimum of 8 had to be present and voting or votes/decisions weren't valid. This rule was set out beforehand and well known.

    If we were to be in the position that the referendum vote was "null & void" due to less than 75% of the populace voting and this was back-dated, then this rule also surely needs to be applied to previous elections? If this is the case, then I would be challenging the results of all the elections I've voted in as the referendum turnout was the highest for years.

    GraceB
    Turn a negative into a positive!
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    The question of what constitutes a valid result is just one of the many things that wasn't given any thought beforehand. No parameters were set for minimum percentage of electorate voting (your analogy of quorate meetings Grace)and what size majority was needed. I personally don't see how any of this can be changed retrospectively because there'll always be some grounds for objection now the trend is known.
    In general elections our way of doing things means that a government can be formed with a small proportion of the actual votes and still call itself a majority, but at least that result can be changed in 5 years time at the longest - unlike the referendum result.
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Some recent elections have been won by less than 30% of the voters who turned out or less than 20% of the total electorate.


    To legislate for a minimum turnout would mean nothing would get decided. The referendum turnout was I believe, good, compared to other occasions.

    There is a country where you have to vote, sorry it escapes me.
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Airwave! wrote:
    Some recent elections have been won by less than 30% of the voters who turned out or less than 20% of the total electorate.There is a country where you have to vote, sorry it escapes me.
    General election results are indeed not representative of the actual votes cast, due to the first past the post set-up. The difference is that we get the chance to change an 'unsatisfactory' election result after a maximum of 5 years. The referendum result doesn't work like that. Parliament(not government) could in effect over-rule it, but that would be risky for all sorts of reasons.
    Australia is where voting is compulsory.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Yes, I thought it was Australia but wasn't sure.

    I'm never sure whether compulsory voting is a good idea or not. I'm sure the idea behind it is a good one but I could imagine some would vote purely randomly. Even with our current system a candidate can pick up a lot of votes purely by being alphabetically first.

    I don't think the vote will be over-ruled or the referendum re-done but currently we have a very divided country, a very divided Tory party, a very divided Labour party and a Lib Dem party that has never recovered from its alliance with the Tories. Viewed dispassionately from afar, this is all quite exciting but, given that all our futures are affected, I find it scary.

    Daffy, I remember, several years back, there was much talk about ditching the first past the post system. The trouble was there were about eight potential alternatives all of which had their advantages and disadvantages. And, of course, the two main parties were against it for obvious reasons.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Daffy, I remember, several years back, there was much talk about ditching the first past the post system.
    Indeed Sticky - that was a referendum as well, but fortunately enough voters saw that the option presented was unsatisfactory to say the least. As you say, the present set-up suits the 2 main parties, but I wonder whether some form of change may now be forced on them in due course(longer term), given the fact that disaffection/dissatisfaction was such a driver for the referendum voting, and the political landscape has been opened up to general scrutiny as never before. Also they are fragmenting and in a pretty precarious position which makes 'unthinkable' alternatives less unthinkable.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,271
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I would love to think so but I think it will be on the back burner for some time.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran