Half a Brexit

Airwave!

The politicians give us a vote, take the result and then decide to change it to what they want.

Can we vote to get rid of the whole blooming lot of them?

daffy2

Can we vote to get rid of the whole blooming lot of them?

In theory yes, at the next general election, but first past the post means that whatever most people actually vote for won't be what they get, and that meaningful change is very difficult to impossible.
Unless of course you are envisaging getting rid of the Westminster behemoth altogether - bring back the monarchy anyone!? -, in which case I don't know how that would be done; precedent is rather a long time ago.....
As far as Brexit is concerned the main problem is abysmal and longstanding ignorance(much of it deliberate sadly, hence 20 months in and still none the wiser about what it means for the country and its people) across the whole political spectrum about how the EU functions. Any wish to change domestic policy will be hampered by that drag factor on top of other details like where the money's coming from.

Quintus

The brexit vote? Was it really based on true information? Boris and all? Cameron lost some kind of poker game against his cousin. I simply don't believe in this kind of poker. NHS collecting 350.000.000 per month? Does it happen? Does Westminster care for NHS? Does Boris? Farage, the loser? Do they take responsibility ? Where? When? Will they be held responsible for their "mis- informations"? One just may call it lies, too.
The outcome won't be nice. And as usual no one will be responsible. But a lot of people will suffer!

Slosh

I think once a "deal" has been agreed there should be a second referendum on it. There was a lot of misinformation spread by the pro brexit side especially in terms of the NHS and what the impact would be. I do find it rather pleasingly ironic that the area of the country expected to suffer most economically as a result of brexit is the area that was most in favour of it.

daffy2

As I see it another referendum won't help, regardless of the question asked. It's what was/is done with the answer that causes problems, and whatever the outcome you will still end up with a large number of disgruntled voters.
Although more facts have come to light since June 2016 I have my doubts as to how much difference that will make. Human behaviour is not rational, and the media influence and crowd mentality have to be factored in. Those who voted out more in protest at their abandonment by government than considered and informed assessment of the pros and cons of the EU are unlikely to change their view I would have thought.
It's a dreadful and avoidable mess which sadly we lack the capability to deal with.

stickywicket

daffy2 wrote:

Those who voted out more in protest at their abandonment by government than considered and informed assessment of the pros and cons of the EU are unlikely to change their view I would have thought.
It's a dreadful and avoidable mess which sadly we lack the capability to deal with.

I quite agree, daffy.

The Irish border seems an insoluble problem which surely should have been considered before even suggesting a referendum.

Quintus

That seems to be the whole problem- apparently nobody had considered such "small details" as the Irish border. There is Gibraltar, for example. I doubt very much that any responsible, Cameron and Johnson on the top ever thought about the impact this Brexit would have on long time citizens from the EU in the U.K. Or for British expats on the continent. What about the younger people and their chance to study within the E.U.? Erasmus, for example.
The whole thing seems to have been managed in a rather amateurish way, based on propaganda and populism. Unfortunately it won't be those who are responsible for this mess who will pay the price. As usual.

daffy2

The Irish border seems an insoluble problem which surely should have been considered before even suggesting a referendum.

Like I said, abysmal and longstanding ignorance.

Quintus

The sad thing is that no one responsible who ran havoc into his country will never, ever be held responsible. Even if this someone has been found out as a cheat. As silly Boris.
Or as the biggest cheat of all in other circumstances : Blair. It is really sad and extremely dangerous that those people NEVER pay for their crimes. A pickpocket is busted. Johnson is still discussed as some kind of PM. He is already the definite insult to the rest of Europe because of his shenanigans, his obvious lies and his all over dishonesty. Farage... well: his grandparents will be some kind of post- mortem helicopters by now. Piss- poor immigrants who worked their way up honestly in the British working class.
Those are the guys who gambled away the future of a generation. And they are still part of "the People " .
Abysmal and ignorant, indeed. 😡

Airwave!

If politicians are trying to get a second vote on Brexit till we get it right can we have a second vote on our MP's!

stickywicket

We get another vote on MPs every five years.

As a remainer I'd quite like another vote on Brexit in 5 years

Clearly you voted for Brexit, Airwave. What were you voting for? Why do you feel you're not getting it?

Airwave!

I confess to being severely dissapointed in our politicians, I am a straight talking sort of fella and I expect others to do the same I'd make them stick to their promises or give up their elected status. They work for us not themselves.

As far as Brexit is concerned they (of all parties) are highjacking it for their own politics. Our decision, theirs to do with as they want was not a part of it.

If a new party came along and offered me what I wanted then they can have my vote.

stickywicket

You're quite right, Airwave, that politicians should be there to serve. There are good, honest ones in all parties but there are also those in it for their own self aggrandisement. Making them stick to their promises would be difficult, though. First of all you have to define what constitutes a promise. If you don't already use it www.realitycheck.org iis very good for sorting out the truth of things though many things are not clear cut.

For my money Brexit started off on the wrong foot as Cameron only called for a referendum in order to get back into power.but, yes, there is a lor of posturing and power-grabbing going on around it on all sides.

As for a new party getting your vote, no party can give us everything we want. We vote for the party and/or the candidate which/who seems to offer most of our priorities. But there must be areas we still disageee about. That's life. And democracy.

Quintus

FEAR. Fear is such a wonderful incentive to keep things going. National wise.
"Strange accent ". " strange looking". "Not one of US"..
Brexit happened because of fear. And of course Cameron totally miscalculated the "fear" element of his voters. And his opponents used fear to their advantage. And won. Well- his peers, in fact. Cameron himself doesn't give a..... well... that. He is well pampered.
Fear of strangers. That was the ticket for brexit. What has been about fear of strangers in Africa? Or india? There have been strangers who took over. They are stlll called Europeans. British, to be precise. And now, after we nearly thought to have left this kind of fear behind? What happened? Brexit. Because of fear of people with another backgrounds. Mostly confronted in the past with British background against their will. Pandora's box in a way.
Fear is a very bad advisor. It is a good advisor if it comes to zealots. Not if it comes to so called "strangers". This world belongs to me. As much as it belongs to all of you. If people are forced to leave their countries because of really bad things that happen in their countries , and mostly brought upon them by powers they simply can't beat- welcome here ! It is their world as much as it is ours. Or mine.
Brexit is just another chauvinistic thing.
Europe as an institution is definitely not the non plus ultra. But it should be the beginning of something better than what Europe experienced after the decline of the Roman Empire. It assured peace since 1945. In Europe. First timer. I really hope that Brexit will not mean "back as usual". If it does, the British will be responsible.

Numptydumpty

Not everyone who voted in favour of Brexit did so because of immigration.
The EU is far from perfect.
There were lies told on both sides, because, unfortunately, that's what politicians do.
This is what is happening, and surely we should be striving for the best we can make of it, whatever our beliefs.

Quintus

The main pro- brexit argument has been a anti foreigner argument. And still is. Hence the struggle with the brexit deal. ( not foreign capital, though - god help us!😊)
But you are absolutely right: the EU (Institutions )are far from being perfect. The idea of EU is perfect and will remain perfect.

Landgull36uk

Airwave! wrote:

If politicians are trying to get a second vote on Brexit till we get it right can we have a second vote on our MP's!

I just hope we dont have a second vote and just get on with the Brexit process and leave because the PM has already made a number of important deals with other countries particularly one that was made recently with Saudi Arabia. Saudi Arabia have offered a huge deal with the UK something like a £90 BILLION+ trade deal, i dont want us to have a second vote which might allow the remain vote to win. I cant see the PM refusing the Saudi Princes offer of £90 Billion+ because of a second vote. I know Saudi Arabia is a bit of a sensitive area for some people because of there human wrights problem but things are improving slowly and the prince wants to bring Saudi into the 21st century and hes more of a moderate than a hardline Saudi King or Prince. It would also be a shame to throw away such a great deal with Saudi Arabia, alot of things will improve as we negotiate with him which includes human wrights.

Landgull36uk

daffy2 wrote:

As I see it another referendum won't help, regardless of the question asked. It's what was/is done with the answer that causes problems, and whatever the outcome you will still end up with a large number of disgruntled voters.
Although more facts have come to light since June 2016 I have my doubts as to how much difference that will make. Human behaviour is not rational, and the media influence and crowd mentality have to be factored in. Those who voted out more in protest at their abandonment by government than considered and informed assessment of the pros and cons of the EU are unlikely to change their view I would have thought.
It's a dreadful and avoidable mess which sadly we lack the capability to deal with.

The majority of northern and midlands population voted out not through protest but mainly through the lack of work there is up our part of the country. I live in the west midlands and on the out skirts of a city that was famous for its pottery infact i was born there. It was a place where you could lose your job one day and get another the very same day but now your lucky to get a job in a supermarket. Alot of our manufacturing businesses have taken there business else where into the EU because of more profit and saving money it was to much for them to stay in the UK. So that made a hell of alot of people redundant and out of work. This has had a major knock on effect with the city with shops, pubs and public services failing. Our town centres are literaly a ghost town, pretty much just boarded up shops and empty pubs its in a sad and sorry state. This applies with alot of other towns and cities across the midlands and the north. Now down in london where alot of the business is happening its a different story, as you may have noticed the vast majority of the voters that voted to remain reside in scotland and guess what London! Infact London is super Pro EU down there and why? because thats where the business and money is. Anywhere a bit further north than london going into the midlands and beyond is pretty much screwed.

daffy2

Alot of our manufacturing businesses have taken there business else where into the EU because of more profit and saving money it was to much for them to stay in the UK.

A great deal of UK manufacturing has gone to places like India and China, lower labour costs being a big reason - I don't think labour costs are lower in the EU, certainly not for those countries that were members when much of this industry movement took place.
I agree with your comments about the knock on effects of such relocation, and this is in large part what I was meaning about a protest vote. People in this areas would have expected(with some justification in my view) that central government would have done something to help manage the problems. Where such help is not forthcoming and where perception is that the government is controlled by the EU rather than being accountable to UK voters then it's hardly surprising the vote will be anti-EU.

Airwave!

Immigration was a part of our concerns certainly not all of it. Britain changed colour and creed long ago. excess numbers did cause concern. I for one was more concerned with sovereinty, our family lost many relations to war only for our government to sign it away to the EU. Britain is ours not the politicians to do with as they please.

daffy2

Airwave! wrote:

Immigration was a part of our concerns certainly not all of it. Britain changed colour and creed long ago. excess numbers did cause concern. I for one was more concerned with sovereinty, our family lost many relations to war only for our government to sign it away to the EU. Britain is ours not the politicians to do with as they please.

But doesn't much of this come back to how successive governments have chosen to use the EU rather than what the EU actually required? Having a scapegoat makes life so much easier; the irony is that the vote for Brexit has brought out the scale of that passing the buck behaviour. Finding out that controlling those coming into the country was an option open to the UK that Theresa May, when in the Home Office, chose not to implement even though the rest of the EU does must have come as rather a shock to some.
Loss of sovereignty has not been absolute, else the UK would not be able to leave the EU.

Quintus

Airwave! wrote:

Immigration was a part of our concerns certainly not all of it. Britain changed colour and creed long ago. excess numbers did cause concern. I for one was more concerned with sovereinty, our family lost many relations to war only for our government to sign it away to the EU. Britain is ours not the politicians to do with as they please.

That is what I meant: your family lost many relations to war because of this overrated national spirit, not because of some imagined lack of indépendance. Britain is yours, of course. But who is you? And since when? And why?