It has to be asked.

Airwave!
Airwave! Member Posts: 2,458
edited 6. Apr 2019, 09:58 in Chit chat
If we can't trust politicians to do what they asked us to vote on then who can we trust?

RIP democracy. Are we now in a autocracy, beaurocracy or just ....what.....?

Comments

  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    This is democracy at its messiest. A real democracy would have proportional representation where the interests of everyone have to be taken into consideration and you don't get the two-party deadlock that we normally have. Proportional representation tends to achieve the middle ground rather than extremes.

    Right now we have the extremes of the two party system plus the extremes of Brexit which divides them. And divides the electorate.

    I'm not sure politicians have ever been regarded as particularly trustworthy but the kerfuffle has arisen because the electorate were never asked to vote on how to exit Europe nor warned, by either side, how complex it would be. I'm reminded of the beloved white peony which I attempted to take with me to our new house. The roots were so intermingled with the roses' roots, the brambles' and bindweed roots that, in the end, I had to chuck it as there was no separating them. That's how entwined our own laws and customs and businesses are with Europe's and why there are so many 'solutions' on how to leave. But, apparently, no solution to the Irish border which no-one seems to have thought of before the referendum.

    I think a lot of politicians are trying to do their best for their electorate and their country. Some are trying to do their best for their party and their own futures.

    Brexit preparations have cost the country £400,000,000 in 2017-2018 and, in 2018-2019 will likely cost £800,000,000. But the foodbanks are growing with people who are in work but can't feed their families, the NHS is growing weaker, the schools are leaking. In or out of Europe it'll be the rich wot gets the gravy and the poor wot gets the blame.
    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • dreamdaisy
    dreamdaisy Member Posts: 31,520
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    It doesn't take much to shock me but I am genuinely appalled at the disgraceful mismanagement of the entire affair. I suspect that whatever the colour of the government involved it would still have been a ghastly muck-up. We were never truly enthusiastic participants in Europe but yet again we must be a complete laughing stock. I don't think we will be leaving on March 29th and as for the idea of another referendum - why? The country spoke, the majority was small but it was a majority. DD
    Have you got the despatches? No, I always walk like this. Eddie Braben
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    as for the idea of another referendum - why?
    Indeed. Whichever way the vote went it would simply exacerbate an already disastrous situation. I am completely opposed to Brexit, but how on earth would a remain vote(if it happened) improve anything? Those who voted Leave out of disaffection and disillusion(from whatever source) are hardly going to roll over and say 'carry on ignoring us we don't mind'. Given that the current batch of politicians have demonstrated how completely useless they are at running the country, let alone dealing with Brexit, I fear that such a result would be a tipping point for something seriously unpleasant. In the meantime those who have always managed to ensure their personal comfort at the expense of the country and its people will continue to do so.
    Warms the cockles to know that our eminently deserving MPs will get a 2.4% payrise without having to argue, justify or even lift a finger as it's all been set up to happen automatically now. Performance related pay has been a farce for many years now and this pay rise isn't that, but nonetheless it smacks of managing to make a blatantly inverse relationship between effectiveness and 'reward'.
    Sorry, I'm a tad irritated. My payrise will be thanks to an increase in the National Minimum Wage(actual pay has been frozen for years) - which because the Local Authority can't afford it will mean more staff cuts in the system.
  • Quintus
    Quintus Member Posts: 62
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I could imagine another referendum. This time in the remaining 27 countries: would we accept another referendum in Great Britain? Why should it only be the British people deciding? After all? After all we are talking about a community, don't we? For the while being the whole thing seems to be arrogantly unilateral. Does it not?
  • Quintus
    Quintus Member Posts: 62
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    The answer would be: you can't trust your politicians. I simply can't remember anything as poorly managed as the Brexit. There is definitely no one in British politics with some kind of a brain to be even slightly competent. The whole bloody issue is so messed up that no tolerable outcome seems to be possible. And that is only and simply the fault of YOU. Sorry. But if you have put your trust in cheats like Johnson's and Farage ´s for example- it is YOUR fault. The german's made the same mistake in the 30th. They paid for it...
    And there is still the anti- Semite Labour Party, is it not? Credible politicians in Britain?
    I remember a friend of my family. A high ranking diplomat in Bruxelles and rather very Britain friendly. His words: what do they want? And whatever what: why???
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,458
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Lets not cast individuals as the villains, they're all as bad. I made up my mind as soon as I heard the original annoucement and didn't pay attention to politicians.


    As for a 2nd referendum:- why should a group have a second one enacted upon and not the first? Why do you expect the remainers to win? At what cost should democracy be? All parliament shares a responsibility with the EU for whats happening.
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I voted remain and still believe the referendum was a terrible abdication of responsibility on Cameron's part but I don't think a second referendum would repair the damage which has been done.

    However, I don't see it as 'one group having a second chance'. In the years since the referendum we have discovered what the pros and cons of each decision is. This should have been gone into long before we voted but at least now we have a much better idea and we know just how complicated the whole business is.

    There is a valid argument (For me, it would be last resort) which says people should be able to vote again for what we now know to be the reality. If it came to it I'd like to see a straight question - IN or OUT but with a subsection to be added for those who wanted out. They would have to choose between the different options on offer - May's, no deal and whatever parliament might or might not come up with. This would be a subsection because that way the NO voters would be on level ground with the YES voters and the subsection choices (of which kind of Brexit they wanted) would only come into play if the NO vote won. I don't see why anyone voting to stay in should have a vote on that subsection.

    I don't see the EU being to blame at all for what is happening in our own parliament. We decided to leave whatever they wanted. I see it as a bit like a marriage where one partners swans off for a perceived better life but still wants all the marital assets.
    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    The referendum was a binary choice between two options that were not equivalent. Staying in the EU was if you like a packed parcel, the contents of which were pretty well known. Leaving was an empty box waiting for a picking list before it could be delivered. If the advisory part of the referendum had been taken seriously it would have implied some attempt by those taking responsibility for delivery to clarify before dispatch what should be in the box, which might have involved asking 'what kind of leave did you have in mind?' That also implied and required a knowledge on the part of the dispatch team of what was on the shelves and what could be fitted in the box. That knowledge was lacking(still is in many cases as far as I can see) hence, for example, the realisation after the event that there might be a bit of a problem with, and for, a large island to the west of the UK.
    Which, if any, of the alternatives that may(or may not,it's difficult to keep track) be on the table represents what those who voted Leave want(ed)? I'm certain the person who has decided to push the process through on her terms only doesn't know.
  • Quintus
    Quintus Member Posts: 62
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    It has to be asked.... why should the remaining EU countries be interested in a second referendum? After two years of arrogant english raisin picking... After the people voted, based on lies and propaganda? Just to give an idea of how friends around me, coming from a couple of countries, think: let's get over with this nonsense. Chuck them out.
    It has to be said: The majority of Europeans (and apparently you do not count as Europeans anymore) are simply tired of english behaviour.
    Your MP's and your PM have catastrophically failed. Pathetic! No second referendum. No further delay. And in my opinion no further gifts to England. And I really do not like the outcome! But enough is enough. Is it not?
    The continent will be cut off..... do you remember?
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I understand the exasperation Quintus, not least because my immediate family(ex, son(not daughter - go figure!), two sisters) have been caught up in the uncertainties.In one respect you are correct, there is no reason why the EU countries should be interested in a second referendum as such,they have more than enough of their own business to deal with, but the wider issue is that until a decision is taken(if ever!) there will be areas of uncertainty for EU countries(trade etc). A 2nd referendum may be part of that decision- making and therefore the outcome is of some interest.
  • Quintus
    Quintus Member Posts: 62
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Exasperation is the proper word. After all I read, see and hear on a daily basis, Westminster turned clown- town.
    Apparently brains switch off when populism rules.
    Brexit is a little bit like coronation street, I think.
  • Quintus
    Quintus Member Posts: 62
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    clown- town just voted... my o my! What for? Against what? Du YOU have a clue???
    Brexit? Exit of Brexit? In, Out? Or out and then back in? Out without being out? Or in? Or backwards? Or what? Nobody on this dark side of the moon is able to understand what the clowns just voted for (or against, if it comes to that). And why.... 'round and round and back and forth... Apart from North Corea... well- it IS getting slightly ridiculous, is it not?
    Yes, Airwave- it has to be asked! Sure does...
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,458
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Name calling will not sort out this political mess and it is clear which side of the fence people sit on.

    I go back to my original question and it is democracy that will be the loser. Populism is a choice by the majority not a bad name for when voters decide on a particular way to vote. It is the political classes that are letting democracy down.