Excerpt from The New Scientist - microbiome & RA

“Frank Billings, co-founder of the Institute of Medicine of Chicago, later speculated that tooth infections may be the cause of rheumatoid arthritis, among other diseases.

We only began to get supporting evidence in 1989, when Kimmo Mattila, a doctor at Helsinki University Central Hospital in Finland, and colleagues noticed that people who had experienced a heart attack were rated as having oral health that was about twice as poor as that of a control group, even when age, social class and smoking habits were accounted for. Asolid link seemed to be there.

More recently, DNA sequencing technology has improved apace, enabling us to catalogue the microbes in our mouths. Thanks to this, we are now finding that the types of bacteria people have living there seem to be associated with a growing number of conditions. We know, for instance, that people with gum disease are as much as 20 per cent more likely to get cancer in their lifetimes compared with otherwise healthy people.

But perhaps the most striking example is Alzheimer’s disease. We have known for a while that people with gum disease are at increased risk of developing this condition, which slowly robs people of their memories, personalities and cognitive function. However, until recently, it was unclear whether poor oral health was a contributing cause of Alzheimer’s or a consequence of it.

Then, in 2019, scientists discovered species of bacteria known to cause gum disease – including one called Porphyromonas gingivalis – living inside the brains of people who died of Alzheimer’s disease. “


Of course, we here in NICE /NHS land, will ignore all this because it wasn’t discovered here, just as Covid symptoms (eg loss of smell as distinctive was not included on nhs/nice sites or GP notifications for months after it was common knowledge, no doubt leading to more deaths) & treatments that worked were ignored from docs who had experienced it in Italy & France, and shared it with the world. Excuses given such as “it needs to be confirmed here”.

In fact, even when UK based papers are published on this link, they are still ignored by clinicians and NICE. Prof Venables of the Kennedy RA institute, Oxford U, lent his name to a paper sumarised in the BMJ but still ignored.

(I posted the BMJ link here sometime ago, so a search of “BMJ” should bring it up)

Comments

  • frogmorton
    frogmorton Member Posts: 29,204

    You know what @Arthuritis

    They did used to say you lost a tooth with every child you had as a woman. How many women get diagnosed with RA post childbirth?!

    It took me years after having mine to get my gum health back on track.

    So very interesting.

    Even more motivation to keep flossing if it might prevent me from getting dementia as well as heart attacks.

    Hope you're still doing ok and had a good Christmas?

    Happy New Year too.

    Toni

  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684

    Interesting, @Arthuritis . As, indeed, your info always is.

    I think it's long been suggested that one cause of RA is when a genetic disposition meets up with an infection of some kind.

    This would make perfect sense in my case. Mum had psoriasis. Not much emphasis on oral health care when I was young. Mum and Dad both had dentures. My brother, sister and I were expected to share a tin - yes, a tin - of toothpaste. Gibbs Dentifrice, I believe it was called and came as a solid block. You wet your toothbrush and rubbed it over the blodk to get some on it. (Heaven knows how many infections it harboured!)

    Nowadays, my dentist, at every check up, tells me I have a 'very clean mouth'. It wasn't always so.

    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • Welsh1
    Welsh1 Member Posts: 48

    Interesting not sure how my mam faired as she never went to the dentist lived till 91 But yes have gum issues had cyst wisdom teeth out prior to RA diagnosis and covid...

  • Mollbhan
    Mollbhan Member Posts: 16

    Doubt if bad teeth caused my RA, had RA for about 5 years now but got all my teeth out at the age of 14, 60 years ago.

  • Trish9556
    Trish9556 Member Posts: 449

    Thank you @Arthuritis

    That's really interesting. My mum died from Alzheimer's in 2011 and it was a real struggle to get any medical professional to realise that it wasn't simply old age as they kept telling me. She also had gum disease. Anything that makes a diagnosis of that awful disease easier is welcomed by all who have watched lived ones go through it

    I also found it interesting as my disabled niece is currently receiving results of her gene testing for Epilepsy which runs through our family. As a result they've identified and referred to to an eye hospital, a gene that signals the presence of an eye disease that causes blindness. All fascinating stuff but it does take ages for any results from gene testing to come through. I'm on standby to he tested as well if they find the gene for epilepsy to see if I have it too as it's bugged me since birth but initially immediate family have been tested who do not have it.

    All fascinating stuff that we could never have dreamt of as children

    Happy new year @Arthuritis

    Trish xx

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Trish9556 Happy New Year to you too!

    I hope that if the gene(s) for epilepsy are found, then editing and correcting them also follows, including freedom from phenytoin. This tech has already been used to successfully restore eyesight and currently a cure for sickle cell disease being researched, among other things. My guess is with the advent of AI taking an increasingly larger role in medicine & research, timescales will be greatly reduced from decades to years to a solution.

    Keep strong & keep the Mylar mallet educational system for med consultants ready! ☺️

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Mollbhan You are probably right, but the Gingivalis (infected gums) bacteria are not the only cause of RA. It is simply one of the more easily found and treatable ones if caught early. Often it’s an unknown cause, simply that, we don’t know what triggered it, but it can seem obvious after the cause is found. Eg suddenly becoming allergic to animal meat such as beef, was a mystery until the mechanism for tick bites was figured out, and in particular, how the immune system reacts. Our genes can also make us more likely to be susceptible if the cause is present. Incidentally RA is considerably more prevalent in developed western society than in less developed countries.

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @stickywicket Thanks & Happy New Year!

    I have never seen a tin of toothpaste, but had heard of it as a WW2 rations thing, that’s really interesting that you have seen & used one! Perhaps your clean dental situation now allows you to not need more than 10mg MTX. I agree being genetically predisposed + trigger = disease. Unfortunately Porphyromonas gingivalis is a sneaky bacterium able to hide inside cells, out of sight of the immune system or at least inaccessible to the T cells, so while outside it can be killed with antibiotics, the reservoir is very difficult to clear.

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @frogmorton Thanks! Still ok, keeping fingers crossed! Yup, keep flossing! @Trish9556 Also Happy New Year’s!

  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684

    @Arthuritis , I was part of the so-called Post War Bulge so that makes sense. I recall the joy when they began selling it in three different colours/flavours so we could have a tin each😁

    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @stickywicket A bit off topic here but ever so interesting as your memory is so good (so unlikely to be Gingivalis induced memory loss, and also there was a blurb somewhere that the immune suppression while making you vulnerable to infection, it protects you from inflammatory damage not just to your joints but also blood vessels ie vascular dementia). Maybe 10mg is the sweet spot!

    I used to collect WW2 stuff, among them I had what must have been “cutting edge tech”…

    A wire recorder .. (Protona Minifon) This was tiny and an incredibly complex device, which recorded sound over several hours onto a fine steel wire, and a moving head that bobbed slowly up and down to wind the wire reel to reel. Inside were tiny miniaturised thermionic valves!

    A car radio telephone, (PYE) it was huge compared to today’s smartphones. It also ran using thermionic valves! Also a car FM/AM radio with those radio buttons with valves inside. Today these would be an audiophile’s dream!

    Oh and my dad left me something called a “radiogram”. No, it’s not a letter delivered by radio!

    It was a huge wooden piece of furniture that had a stereo radio and vinyl record player (they were called gramophone?) hence radiogram. This was made in the Soviet Union by a presumably long defunct company called Rigonda.

    oh and a tin of spam! It was rusty so I didn’t try to open it but I think it was a food item. Today we find spam in our junk Mail folders!

  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684

    @Arthuritis what have you done to me? Now I really feel my age😆

    I remember radiograms. We nearly bought one for our first house but it would have taken up most of one wall! So we just got a gramophone - a nice, teak box on legs basically. Better than the ancient HMV one I had as a child. The sort where you'd to change the thick needle every time. Being second hànd, it came with a stack of records of a weird size I've never seen since.

    We were also served spam fritters at school dinners. Never tempted since but there were worse things on offer!

    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 27,684


    If at first you don't succeed, then skydiving definitely isn't for you.
    Steven Wright
  • Trish9556
    Trish9556 Member Posts: 449

    Me too! @stickywicket and @arthritus@Arthuritis

    Tins of spam that you could never open, a bit like those wretched corned beef tins which were the cause of many injuries. Radiogram, stereogram, (everyone wanted one in their new house but could rarely afford one), the wind up record player in a huge wooden box that I had as a child. All those 78's, (the weird size records?) which were heavy and sounded like they were playing through two coffee tins connected by long lengths of string to your friends bedroom across the road.😂

    I don't think we had tins of toothpaste, I remember getting a new toothbrush every year in my stocking at Christmas but strong memories if using salt and bicarb of soda, not together, to clean our teeth. It was revolting.

    Spam fritters... I remember serving my boys spam fritters, sandwiches etc and frying it with an egg for breakfast or with an omelette. It was cheap and did them no harm.

    Hope you're both doing ok

    Love n hugs

    Trish xx

  • Mollbhan
    Mollbhan Member Posts: 16

    Arthuritis, I read with interest the article regarding a leaky bowel being a possible cause of RA. About 12 years ago I had a colonoscopy done as I had been passing blood, this diagnosed diverticulitis as the cause, which of course could indicate a leaky bowel, full blown RA came along about 5 Years ago. There has been a history of bowel problems in my family, my grandmother, mother and sister all had major bowel surgery. The diverticulitis bothered me off and on for years until I started consuming large quantities of home made yogurt which seems to have calmed things down.

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Mollbhan Thanks for the tip! Can I ask how did you make home made yoghurt? I think like sourdough you would probably need a live bacterial sample wouldn’t you?

    Great idea! I will give it a go with Yakult to see if that works, sadly I have to stay off milk proteins. Here is my dos and don’ts specifically for my gut biome in allowing me to have zero pain and zero meds:

    My RA flare avoidance & prevention foods - Dos & Don’ts 

    Don’ts

    Fish 

    chicken 

    eggs 

    whey proteins 

    peanut butter

    Cheese


    Fructose & Invert Sugar corn syrup - baked products panettone, biscuits, cherries absolute no. Small pieces of mango & papaya maybe 


    Beans total no. No chilli con carne as lectins dissolved in sauce survive and result in tendon & ligament pain 


    Potatoes: Limit or avoid. Causes ligament weakening 


    Do’s:

    Green salad smoothies

    Green salads. No onions 

    Limited Beef 

    Mushroom risotto 

    Rice

    Veg sushi

    Limited Bread, despite gluten, tolerated 

    Dark choc Lindt 90%

    Limited chips & potatoes

    Carrots

    Wellcome aubergine salad

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @stickywicket @Trish9556 Its great hearing about stuff that you know about from first hand experience and not just something you see in films!

    ok, I know how to use a rotary phone, and an A to Z, and went to school on quaint red double deckers with no safety door downstairs - you just jumped on or off and a conductor that gave you a ticket from a whirry thing strapped to their waist…LWT & Granada TV still existed … and my fav show was Doctor in the House (Dr Upton). Today it’s just Dr House and he’s American (in the show).

    and here’s a Gen Z…

    https://youtu.be/updE5LVe6tg

  • Mollbhan
    Mollbhan Member Posts: 16

    Making your own yogurt is very simple, heat your milk to almost boiling point, let it cool to about blood heat,40c and pour it in to a vacuum flask with a spoonful of greek yogurt. Ready in about 8 hours. I find yakult and the other health drink types make a very strong acrid yogurt, plain unpasteurised greek yogurt is best. It can be made with oat milk but I have never tried it.

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Mollbhan Thanks for the tip! Dumb question, but where did you get the unpasteurised greek yoghurt from? Most of the brands I looked at in the local supermarket are pasteurised so not much use. But I really want to try this.

  • I think infections and any type of inflammation that’s happening on the body can trigger some kind of arthritis and I also believe trauma or stress can be a trigger as well !

    Before I had any pains .

    I had an operation on my back wisdom tooth gum and Operculectomy !! Which in turn caused big infections and very traumatic for me !!

    I also in the September before first pains began had a very stressful time !

    I have always suffered with inflammation on my skin acne ect ect

    And I also have iBS !

    Then I had psoriatic arthritis diagnosis!

    After a horrible infection treated with string anitibiotics I then went into remission !

    I am still in remission since last march 2023 with no bone damage or anything on X-rays or ultra sound ! The rhumatologist says they have poisoned me with the drugs lol sulfasalazine and methotrexate!

    He said it I strange condition and it can come and go but at the moment mine is snoozing !

    so I do believe that it can be something we are already living with that triggers it !

    I am currently living my life very calmly and stress free because I don’t want it to wake up ! X

  • Mollbhan
    Mollbhan Member Posts: 16

    Arthuritis, Just greek style yogurt from Asda, Tesco or Yeo valley makes a good starter, leave in the vacuum flask for 8-10 hrs for a fairly mild yogurt, if left too long in the flask it will get stronger becoming quite acrid. I consume about a half pint a day, worked wonders for my digestive system.

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Mollbhan Thanks!!

  • Arthuritis
    Arthuritis Member Posts: 440

    @Hairobsessed123 Thanks for posting & reminding everyone! Hope you stay well!