Re:Veiled threat

mellman01

Well the French are banning the veil tomorrow so what do you think?, a good idea or not??.

jilly

I think it is silly that religeon can cause so much upset surely it is time it adapted to the modern world and we all learned to live together ,,,,,,jilly

katknapp

ooh controversial!!!Bet everyones waiting to see who's brave enough to answer......so i will wait too

tjt6768

Think the whole hide your face thing should be stopped, I would get pulled by every single copper if I walked down the street wearing a balaclava or worse still, a ninja outfit :shock: :shock:
What about if I wore a balaclava and walked into a bank, pretty sure the silent alarm would be tripped and the safety shutters firmly closed rapido stylee... Yet (for example, so nobody takes offence.. Before you start) if an Asian lady wearing a Burkha (not sure if I have spelt that right but if not hope that nobody calls the goody goody squad and has me arrested for offensive spelling of a foriegn object) and afore mentioned alarm was raised each time and shutters closed, what would happen then, would the reaction of the staff at the bank be the same..??? Interesting..
Not sure on the whole banning wearing crosses etc, they could be classed as jewellry or accessories surley?
I may be wrong about this but I don't believe it is written in any religous text that anyone should have to cover their faces anyway is it?

Oooooooooh, I love these over-sized cans of worms :eek:

jillyb1

As a strict atheist myself , I feel that if I have the right to be an unbeliever then other people have the right to believe in whatever they wish as well . As for strange veils and burkhas ; nuns and monks dress oddly too , but no one demands they alter their way of dressing . Live and let live I say ! Jillyb

valval

i may have got this wrong or does there religion not say they have to wear the vail sure i heard it some where. it very disconcerting when you are talking to someone who's face you can not see it is the costom of this country to see peoples faces when dealing with them i have no problem with with scarves ,crosses, st christophers even lucky clover but men in skirts etc not so sure about
out young not even allowed to wear hoodies with there faces showing val

coco67

i often wonder if the viel/burka were not miss used in the past (for crime/terorism) would people in general be so distrustful of it,

i have to say and i am being honest here so line up the rifles here goes.... i am very uncomfortable with it all, (forces history and see the missuse death caused by it) also it is not in the koran that a woman has to wear a viel or burka, they just have to be modest, another part of a religion taken twisted and made to suit anothers wishes, this happens in other religions also.

but i also have to ask why do i have to remove a crash helmet and all face covering when entering a bank to allow myself to be identified and yet anyone can walk in in a viel/burka and expect no questions to be asked. a persons face says so much. expresions show mood etc it very hard to read someone when all you can see is a pair of eyes.

this is just my view,and it is NO way ment as racist, although no doubt some one will see it that way, right ive said it now, backs against the wall ready for the firing squad.

coco67

i think if asked most people wouldnt bother about a head scarf being worn, i think the main thing is the covering of the face its self wether it be by veil or burka,

tjt6768

It is in no way a rascist remark Coco, and I am hoping that someone who actually knows the real answer as to if it does say in any text that women must wear the burkha in public.. Surely we must have some Muslim arthurites out there...
I am not now and have never been a rascist but I am a realist, I state what I see or know to be true, if people take offence to that then sorry but that is without a doubt their problem not mine.. I think I have stated on here before but I wouldn't offend anyone intentionally...
So, does everyone agree that it is wrong that someone wearing a burkha entering a bank or similar high profile building would more than likely NEVER be asked to remove it but should I enter in a motorbike helmet or even simply a scarve wrapped around my face, we know what would happen.
That statement by the way has NOTHING to do with race, and as such could not be rascist anyway :roll:
I think tomorrow I will ask a few of my very close Muslim friends about the burkha issue.. In my opinion (just that) it is more likely to be a chauvenistic thing than a religion thing..

Headscarves and also skullcaps are fine by me, so are Nun's habits, which by the way don't cover the face..

Right Coco, that is me and thee for the firing squad eh? Lol
No blindfold for me please

coco67

lol tony i dont want a blindfold either,

it was debated this morning on the telly and two muslim women were on there and both clearly stated that NO where in the koran does it say a veil/burka has to be worn, It states that a women has to be modest, so the word MODEST is open to an individuals interpretation and that is it. ive also talked this subject through in the past with a very devout muslim colleauge and she stated the same, she never wore more than a head scarf but that was her choice and she akind it to a cross or a jewish cap (cant think of propper name sorry) it was a visable sign to say she was a muslim.

so tony its not in the koran its down to interprotation.

think im gona be first in line now

jillyb1

Agree with you , Tony , that it's more a male orientated edict than religious writings that women cover their faces ; but surely if that is their wish then it should be their right to do so as much as it is our right to leave our faces uncovered and free for all to see ! Have to say though , my hubby has no objection to my face being covered if I wished to do so ; he has often suggested a brown paper bag would do the trick ! Jillyb

tjt6768

I did believe that to be the case Coco, think my assumption of it being a male domineering thing could be correct, just the way it looks to me anyway..
The skullcap is the Jewish head thingy..
I am not religious but do class myself as CofE if that makes sense. That was how I was brought up anyway.. I would never mock someone for their religion, even if you don't believe it to be a real one (certain Mr someone, lol) in fact I did envy my best friend's parents when he died aged 14, I could not handle it and it made me quite ill in fact (didn't realise at the time but I also had glandula fever) but his parents Catholisism helped them cope really well.. I still struggle with losing my best friend now, even after all these years.. (In fact I got quite an upsetting shock when I visited his grave yesterday, I noticed right away that he had a new headstone, after 31 yrs, reason was that his Dad's name has been added, I was so upset, I haven't been in touch with his folks for a few years and they had moved away..)

Anyway.....

Back to the firing squad, think I better stand at the front, was me who started the whole bank robbery thing :shock:


Jilly, lol.... Bless your hubby. Does he know that you know where the knives are kept :shock:
I don't have trouble with personal choices hun, but when it comes to some people being treated differnently to others, no matter who they are it really gets on my nerves.. It could be anything, it just happens that we are discussing the burkha at the minute and it does and must present a security problem in places such as banks.. Surely bank robbers could now just wear a burkha to do their robberies now, and the police wouldn't be able to stop them walking down the street pre-robbery for looking suspicious, if you get what I mean, whereas if they were wearing balaclavas they would... Think that makes sense, I am not always the greatest at explaining myself, lol...

Back to my other point (probably a bigger can of whoopass, erm, I mean worms)
Positive discrimination, what the Hell is all that about :???: :shock: :roll:

mellman01

What gets me is why is it a hot potato?, why can't we discuss it seriously from a none religious sensible point of view?, were so dammed worried about stating the obvious just because it involves religion logic is totally reversed!, it’s madness.

bubbles

I will have my two penneth worth. I am led to belive that it is the men that insisit that their wives have their heads covered, so as not to attract other men. But, it is ok for them to wear track suits and trainers and do just as they please. I won't say what I want to say, or I will be hauled over the coals.
If you go to fill up with petrol and you have a crash helmet on, they normally tannoy "take your crash hat off please", but, would they do that if someone is wearing the burkha? No, or there would be howls of discrimination.
I am so pleased that the French have stood up and said NO. I lived in France for years and yes, they are part of the EU, but they make their own minds up and are not afraid to say No, while the rest of us dither about and create diversity groups to add to our nanny state.

Oh Bubbles, get off of your medicine trolley and calm now.

joanlawson

I find this a difficult question because in principle I believe that women should have the freedom to wear whatever they choose, and should not be dictated to by the state. On the other hand, the burka is symbolic of female oppression and many women are coerced into wearing it. It can be intimidating in some situations, and also presents a possible security risk. Human beings identify each other by looking at each other's faces, so to cover the face is to dehumanise the women to some extent.

The trouble with a ban is that some women might not be allowed to leave their homes if their husbands don't want them to show their faces in public, so their freedoms to mix with society will be even less than at present. It might just force women to further go "underground", away from the mainstream. Also, a ban plays into the hands of Islamic fundamentalists who want to portray themselves as a righteous minority under attack. I also imagine that it will be a difficult law to enforce. Any man found guilty of forcing a woman to wear a burka will be fined, but that might be very difficult to prove.

I seem to be sitting on the fence on this subject, but it isn't black and white. There are many grey areas, so I'm still undecided about it.

Joan

joanlawson

I am led to belive that it is the men that insisit that their wives have their heads covered, so as not to attract other men. But, it is ok for them to wear track suits and trainers and do just as they please

Some would say that the real issue is not about a piece of cloth - it is about individual men oppressing their wives. After all, if the burka is so great and desirable, then why don't Muslim men wear it too? I tend to agree with this, but we have to consider that some women say that they find wearing a burka is liberating. They don't have to worry about fashion or what to wear, and it shields them from the unwanted gaze of men.

caterina57

Well seems like an open debate is going on here.
My view? well.....I do not think that the full covering of ones face with the veil is actually anything to do with either religion or custom - I think the bottom line is that it is choice....If it was mandatory as part of culture or religion then clearly every woman of following the practice would be wearing it and that is obviously not the case.
There are issues relating to whose choice .. is it the woman herself or is it the choice of her husband and if it is why?
I can understand that rules of modesty apply - in most religions I suppose and even for decent morality. I do not have any problems with people choosing to practice religion - whatever that is, and to wear items of clothing or jewellery that identifying one as being of a particular religion. However in Britain we are a predominantly christian country and as with most countries the dominace is usually observed. I have been stopped on holiday from entering particular buildings because I was wearing shorts or did not have my head covered. I did not rant and rave that I had the freedom to do it I respected the rules and the cultures and returned when I was more suitably attired.
If people wish to cover their face within their own homes and places of worship I have no problem with that at all. My friends parents are italian - within the home they speak italian to each other and when visting italian freinds - however in public they speak English. That is because they believe it is the right thing to do and does not segregate them from their neighbours and wider community.
I am a christian - a Roman Catholic, I am proud to say so -- but wouldn't ram it down someones throat, I have to live within a society where other needs have to be accommodated for example Sunday is supposed to be a day of rest but I have to work - and have always had to work on a sunday beacause my work has always involved looking after people and hey ho they need to be looked after on sundays.
To cut to the chase I do have a problem with the covering of the veil on a number of levels. I have hearing problems -completely deaf in one ear and have reduced hearing in the other, I rely on facial expressions and in particular the mouth to communicate. How does a mother wearing a veil communicate with her child - how does the child know that she is smiling or frowning?
My biggest issue with the covering of the face with a veil is that it segregates communities - that and language.
I went into town a few days ago and felt I had walked into the league of nations! I could not believe how many languages I came across in half an hour in a supermarket! To fully integrate into a society there has to be sameness, things that are common to all, language and dress are two of the most segregating things I can think of - and neither have anything to do with religion!
Cath

coco67

well put cath, i have lived overseas on several occasions and every where i have gone i have always made an effort to intergrate, even down getting the cypriot guy on the gate to teach me a few words of greating in the first couple of days and then when going to the local shops in the village i used to take a shopping list with it in there language, id go in the bakery for example and great them with the few words id learned and hand them my list (written in the local lingo), between that and a few smiles, nods of heads and hand gestures i would get what i needed, after a few weeks of this the guy who owned the bakeryand spoke perfect english said how it was seen as a honour to them that someone from outside had made such an effort to blend in and try.

my kids even though they were little knew how to say hello thankyou etc in the local lingo and used it often.

we were accepted as part of the community (even went to a few bbq's etc) and i think it is a sad state when walking down some parts of the uk i feel a forigner as the langue spoken by most is not english and even the shops etc are set up for the locals who have made no attempt to blend in they just changed an area to resemble there homeland. segrigation has been there aim and they have sucsseded in a lot of ways, its sad as a lot can be learned from both sides, the veil/burka is just another way of segrigation.

best go back under cover as the firing squad will be looking for me again

caterina57

Brain washed? I don't feel intimidated by muslims, youths in hoodies, inconsiderate drivers or tattoed men in vests walking pitbull type dogs! What I do feel is saddened that the things that make us British and especially distinctly English are slipping through our fingers.
A lot of the muslims in this country are not foreigners - they were born here! - but you would think they have just stepped off the plane as they speak, behave and dress as they would if still in their country of origin Why do they do this? If I came to London and started to speak in a very northern yorkshire accent with local words I would not be understood or accepted therefore I wouldn't do it -it is common sense! A young pakistani lad called the other day and asked if I wanted my Vindows Vashing -- I asked where he was born - Sheffield he proudly replied! I was stunned.... My sisters SIL emigrated to Canada 15 years ago her 3 children were young - the youngest 15 months - they came to visit last year and all spoke with canadian accents - How is it that a boy no more than 17 who was born here can not pronounce a W?
For communities to work there has to be agreed goals and missions, acceptance of differences BUT - No language difference, disobediance of law and an understanding of each others needs. Public places are public and the rules have to be the same for everyone irrespective of race religion creed ability etc.
And no I wouldn't vote for the politician who banned the Burka that would be silly! I would need a wider view of his/her policies and no I dont think where is the bomb when I see a group of muslims - that too is silly!
Cath

mellman01

rehab44 wrote:

Am I being brainwashed?
Why do I always feel uncomfortable in the presence of muslims, why is that when I see them mob handed in a shopping centre I think, 'where is the bomb?'
Would you vote for the party that would ban the Bhurka?

I would vote for a party that banned it through common sense, I don't think your brain washed len it's just that they are right now considered to be a bit iffy due to 9/11 7/7, and wearing radical statments like that only focuses your attention onto them that's why they wear it.
That said there are many Muslims who follow their religion and interprit it fare more sensibly than the radicals, it's more a code for decent living but that said do you need to be religious to have decent morals?.
Not all Muslims are dangerous same as not all EDL memebers are facists.
I do wonder if those who cause so much trouble here should just shove off abroad if they really don't like it here would you stay in a country that you loathed so much you wanted to destroy it?, the thing is they love the welfare state and wouldn't last five minutes in say Saudi so they stay here on the dole and or the sick and then bit the hand that feeds them, I bet many moderate Muslims are as pi&^%ed off with them as much as we are, what really gets my goat is the BBC constantly forcing Islam down my thraot as if it's going to make me love these radical numpties, the one show last night was doing it's best but it just look daft sitting there talking to a pair of eyes.

mellman01

My Cousin was one train back from one of those blown up so it's real to me, there is a threat there and it's not a silly one either, it's sad that some think as they do but looking at it from their side of things we have had a long time messing about and fighting the Arab nations, all followers of Islam sees another Muslim as sister or brother first so it's percieved as far more personal to some of the more readical ones.
Not sure what the answer is but if there is another 7/7 or a worse attack the BBC will be foreced into admitting it's Islamic terrorist and not just "terrorist", I don't think things will get much better unless the Arab countries can become more open and less represivie, I am 50 this year and I have lived all my life seeing news of Arab terrorists blowing this up or that up, hijacking planes then killing pasangers for attention to their cause ie Palastine, or as of now turing the whole plan into a weapon thus killing themselves and all on board.
I'm just sick of it Len,the TV is full of slaughter and it get's depressing honestly does me ed in!.

Airwave!

Four problems here:-

1. Muslim men can't behave themselves unless their women cover up. Is that why the prophet made the rules for them?

2. It is not a gender equal religion. No women allowed at the place of worship.

2. This is a Christian country. There may be less in church but we still follow the doctrines in our everyday lives.

3. They do not integrate into OUR country whether recent immigrants or second/third generation. Living in a ghetto in the UK and speaking a different language is not integrating.

tjt6768

I would not dream of going to live in another country without learning the language.. And it's not just Asians guilty of that one..

They do however make little attempt to blend into a country that has welcomed them here.. Wonder how much extra it cost to have the recent census forms available in God knows how many different languages... Bet there are not many countries stupid enough to even offer that service.. This place is financially crippled, we could save a fortune on services such as that. On a recent holiday to Spain a friend had to go to a police station, think they'd had their passport stolen or something... Do you think the Spanish police rushed to find an interpretor? Well they would have done if my pal had coughed up the right amount of Euros, and damn straight, that's how it should be! This rant has taken another tangent, lol....

Ban the burkha, just my opinion, lol...

livinglegend

valval wrote:

but men in skirts etc not so sure about

And what is wrong with a good Scottish kilt then?

mellman01

It’s one of the many down sides of the head long rush to embrace multiculturalism, ironically a lot of the original Muslim population who came here to settle did so as their country of birth was to radical for them and they wanted to live as we do, they now tell the young amongst them if they want Sharia law then go to a country that practices it.
Thing is though what do we do about those who burn poppies at remembrance day, the way it goes here now is the Police will arrest anyone trying to stop them from committing such a dishonourable act it’s totally mad, they deserve all they get, if you keep making excuses and protecting them they will get bolder and bolder.
And as Len says are we being brain washed? not sure but you daren’t say what you think, I was out for dinner a few weeks back and the pending royal wedding was brought up, all I said I worry about someone with a rucksack running in shouting “god is great” then exploding, well it’s a probability and a logical opinion but immediately I was hushed up, when I asked why they said “we don’t want to upset anyone!”, there’s some kind of paranoia going on with the whole issue of this one small section of society not sure why but it’s almost like not looking at the large loud drunk guy walking home in case you get thumped.

Poppyg1rl

I am a Roman Catholic, a Eucharistic minister and a catechist coaching youngsters through their confirmation. I mention this because part of the programme is to visit other places of worship and to understand other faiths. We have visited many mosques, synagogues, etc and always found a warm welcome and a pride in their faith. Incidentally at the mosque we visited women were allowed to worship and had their own section to do so. We have always upon leaving, extended an invitation to visit and experience a Roman Catholic church,in the eight years I have been doing this they never have.
I find it sad, but there seems to be no interest whatsoever in understanding any other faiths than their own.
X