Sleep in two sessions

Baloo

After waking up stiff day after day and only getting 4:45hr sleep, I thought it might be a good idea to try getting up and going back to bed again afterwards. I have a cocoa and maybe some Physio then go back to bed. Don't get me wrong, I tried it twice so far but . . . The result has been quite remarkable. Ancle swelling went down. Shoulders stopped aching. Overall a kind of continuous flare up has gone down to bearable, and I could tell it was working from the very first day. Getting maybe an extra hour of sleep. I have to prepare by going to bed earlier, but totally worth it.

Rina

Hi @Baloo, I totally agree with you - this has worked for me too, on several occasions. I get up, joints aching and swollen and feeling really groggy. I’ll have a cup of coffee then go back to bed for another hour. I wake up feeling so much better! I’m glad it works for you too!

Arthuritis

@Baloo @Rina Thanks for the tip!

So was it the cocoa or physio? ☺️

I often find if I sleep extra, although my mind feels refreshed, my joints get whacked extra hard. Must be the T cell maint crew going to work on my joints, instead of repairing, eating them!

But that was without cocoa or physio… I must try that!

Lilymary

This used to be a recognised pattern of sleep, I think it was mentioned in Pepys’s diaries, they called it “first sleep” and “second sleep”. They’d get up during the night, meet in the kitchen for a natter or do a bit of work, have a bite to eat and go back to bed. It’s really interesting how successful this has been for you in other respects. I wonder if any research has been done on this?

Baloo

Thats interesting @Lilymary @Arthuritis. I have not seen any relevant medical research on the internet just the usual stuff about how to nod off. However, 1 week into sleeping in two sessions my smartwatch says I have shot from 4:45hr sleep a night to 6:07hr a night, and the sleep curve is smoother. The arthritis has gone from a sharp ache to a dull ache, but sadly the swollen feet have come back.

Arthuritis

@Baloo Quick Q, what meds & dosage, and how long have you had RA?

I am on 17.5 MTX, had symptoms developing for months but only diagnosed in October.

jamieA

Hi @Baloo

Since suffering PsA I regularly wake around 04:00 in the morning - I was previously a sound sleeper. I mentioned this to one of the rheumatologists when I was admitted to hospital and he said that the body's natural steroid production follows a circadian rhythm and is at it's lowest between 04:00 and 07:00.

Baloo

@jamieA low steroid production period makes sense. It did cross my mind that all I might be doing is riding out the worse of the pain and then going back to bed. However I'm also getting less aches overall, maybe thats due to sleeping longer, which is a blessing. Except for my wrist which suddenly complains when I pick up something heavy like the kettle, before it used to ache all day, now it just fires off ping when I pick up the kettle.

Baloo

@Arthuritis no meds. Its not RA as such, its seronegative arthritis or inflammatory arthritis. I was on steroids and would just swell up without them ever since it came on a couple of years ago. I took up the challenge from the Rheumatologist to come off them without immunosuppressants, and had to do quite a bit of research to get myself off meds. Posture correction, quit coffee. and since then taking my sleep in two sessions. Don't get me wrong. I am still stiff as a board though, can't sleep on my arms, and my feet have swelled up. When it gets too much I take an ibuprofen and one ibuprofen kills it for a whole day, quite amazing. I'm waiting for a steroid injection in my arm as my whole arm is stiff. I'm also waiting to see the Rheumatologist (or doctor) to check whats the risk with my feet.

Arthuritis

@Baloo Being seronegative is a fine dream in my case! My ACCP of 500+ is never going -ve!

Baloo

@Arthuritis without knowing your story, I am at least glad you are on a treatment. I might need the same one some day being as this afternoon I near enough passed out with fatigue. What does it do.

Arthuritis

@Baloo Apart from the pain, your immune system goes crazy and wastes its energy attacking your own body, not just joints, that’s for the fortunate, as it can attack any organ, lungs, kidneys, eyes, brain, while ignoring a virus like covid.

On top of that, the meds work by suppressing your immune sys, so with meds you are even more clinically vulnerable. This puts you on the NHS vulnerable list, so at least you get priority on PCR tests and any treatment pills going. That said, UK in its hurry, bought the first one available which is only 30% effective and Merck knew that the NHS would never buy theirs if Pfizer’s Paxlovid (89% effective) had been available at the same time, which it is now. NHS got played by them in my opinion. Both are expensive, but in my opinion only one works sufficiently. Time will tell. Merck not covered in glory.

When RA attacks your joints it starts by often getting them inflamed. It can also weaken your ligaments slowly over a longer period, so you don’t notice that for example, you can’t turn off that drip-drip tap without hurting your hand that you used to be able to. You struggle to open jars or bottled water, and put it down to being unfit. This then eventually over weeks months or years depending on your ACCP, develops into excruciating pain and much more profound disability.

The important thing is an RA team is keeping an eye on you and you get regular check ups.

Baloo

Thank you @Arthuritis thats very realistic. It may be my immune system has been crazy for a long time. The required health teams appear to work best on a periodic cycle, which is where the NHS concept of a waiting list appears to originate. Rheumatologist every 3 months. Physiotherapist every 6 weeks. etc. It's a hard time knowing which condition to report back on for the best, and how soon, but report one must.

I made it onto the critical list, and been sent my emergency PCR test waiting to be used. My Mrs didn't and in some ways prompted the sleep in two sessions idea, as they have been doing it their whole life, but with a much longer break before the 2nd sleep, and seems to be doing quite well on it.

Cimca

Hi I also find this works for me. Awake at 4.am, read the news, cup of hot chocolate and pain meds then back to bed. I wake a couple of hours later feeling less achy and so much more alert.

Arthuritis

@Cimca @Baloo I will look forward to your 4:00am cocoa post! Funny I do the same but had not given it the 2 sleeps name!

A Simca Bagheera!

Baloo

Sleep in two sessions, week 2. I had to limit some other plans but life was going that way anyhow. I took a long weekend and didn't achieve as much as usual. Something, but not as much of it. So I know its happening and just hope my planning system recovers a little once I get used to it.

Baloo

Sleep in two sessions week 3. Meditation is go. The plan now, is I got 5hr sleep which I suspect is not enough so I tried one of the meditation routines to drop off for an extra hour and got 30min light sleep 30min deep sleep. I was gobsmacked. It might also be from taking an ibuprofen so I don't entirely know yet. Over the month I rarely have deep sleep so it looks worth investigation. I might be able to tell if the meditation is good at preventing anything nasty.

Baloo

Sleep in two sessions. No obvious sign of a connection between Ibuprofen and deep sleep.

Baloo

Sleep in two sessions. Still gaining something from doing this. I found its a good chance to compare sleeping positions and support pillows, as which ones are a relief, and which ones make pain worse.

Baloo

I was working from home and now work want us back in the office. This means clocking my sleep earlier by a good three or four hours, and facing work in an arthritic condition. Why can't they leave well alone.

Baloo

I am facing a loss of sleeping hours possibly from an allergic rash. 6hr has become 3hr and its not clear why. The first session registers no sleep on my watch, the second session registers maybe between 1hr to 3hr sleep on the watch. Heart rate has gone up from 72 to 83. Going back onto steroid made no difference except the rash and aches has calmed down and still no difference. Right now I am planning to solve it by a third sleep session but its weird.

Baloo

Discussed the worrying loss of sleep measurement with the mental health guys on 111, and decided to turn off the sleep monitoring dial, as it was too worrying.

Baloo

Week 14. No longer sleeping in two sessions. I think this must be due to a return to the office a month ago, which has forced me to find some better pain management, and end up feeling less tired. It was a couple of weeks before I noticed the difference.

stickywicket

I don't think it really matters how many sessions as long as the sleep we do get is beneficial and enables us to live reasonably well. You're doing what's right for you right now and that's good.

Brynmor

Thanks @Baloo for keeping this updated, including the effects of changing work patterns has affected your sleep.

Keep going and do let us know how you are getting on - it’s so very helpful 😀

Baloo

Eureka. I got my sleep monitor back by turning on the inactive time alerts. I might complain to Samsung but meanwhile think I have better things to do. The first thing that comes out is a restless night 4hr 16min where I kept waking up for the bathroom. Its only one night but having the bio feedback is so helpful. Not only was the sleep restless it was also too short. Sleep left to itself has probably gone to pot.