A new begining

Airwave!
Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
edited 3. Jul 2016, 14:02 in Community Chit-chat archive
Already I am hearing doom and gloom because a democratic result didn't go their way, politicians, hey, what would you do with them! So much for bending to the will of the people.

A new PM with a positive attitude will lead us to a different future, a positive one.
«1

Comments

  • dreamdaisy
    dreamdaisy Member Posts: 31,558
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    We would have heard doom and gloom if the vote had gone the other way. The next year or so will be interesting to say the least. DD
    Have you got the despatches? No, I always walk like this. Eddie Braben
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Will we get duty free wine again? :cheers:
  • rondetto
    rondetto Member Posts: 2,452
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I would have had more respect if Cameron had said he would stand by the country's verdict. Instead he threw his dummy out of the pram. Just proves he has never listened to the majority of the people on our little island. A spineless childish Prime minister
    we can do without.
    I have never liked Donald Trump, but for him to state that the British people have just had their country handed back to them is the best
    thing he has ever said.
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    The electorate has expressed its wish - but at the moment(and possibly for the immediate future) that's all it is. We are still in the EU, immigration issues and the infamous £350 million/week still exist.
    There was, and is as yet, no Post Brexit Plan. The referendum vote isn't a mandate for action, although Parliament would be foolish to ignore it.
  • barbara12
    barbara12 Member Posts: 21,109
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Yes we will see were it takes us, things cant be has bad has being in..2 years they say..I hope not..and Ron I said the same this morning..if Cameron had said that he would stand buy the peoples wishes ..I would have thought better of him..
    Love
    Barbara
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,280
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    It's no secret that I was in the 'remain' camp but what I do applaud is the huge electoral turnout and I do hope this renewed enthusiasm for democracy continues through other elections.

    As daffy says, we are in the EU until we activate Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty. That has always stood as the only legal way of leaving. Once Article 50 is triggered, there is no way back but quitting the EU is not an automatic process - it has to be negotiated with the remaining members. These negotiations are meant to be completed within two years.

    I've never liked David Cameron but I think it very unfair and unnecessarily aggressive to call him spineless and childish. The advocates of Brexit got what they wanted. It is up to them to get the best deal they can for the UK.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • mig
    mig Member Posts: 7,150
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Hubby and I had a bet on on the turn out and I won ,I think he underestimated the feeling of people ,he thought 30-40% I said 70%_80.
    I would have respected Mr C more if he had stayed in the job. Mig
  • TheLordFlasheart
    TheLordFlasheart Member Posts: 346
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    A momentous moment for this country, its going to be a long rocky path to when we leave the EU and beyond.

    Its inevitable that Scotland will leave the union and be independant, and for that we will be a lesser nation.

    Were going to have to live with this choice for a long time to come.
    "Stoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Hey we'll miss the Scots but holding them back would be the wrong thing to do. But then at 60%/40% to remain its not a total walkover.


    I was looking for a job and went into a local job agency, the workers there were Polish, speaking Polish, answering the phone in Polish, I gave up and haven't worked since, any sort of job that I could have done was long gone.


    :cheers:
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,280
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    “The public want to be lied to.”

    I was listening to the Radio 4 Today programme this morning. A slot about Boris Johnson as prospective Tory leader had a woman arguing against and a man arguing for. I didn't catch names.

    The woman said Boris was known for not telling the truth.

    The man said MPs never showed their full hand in negotiations.

    But, the woman protested, you don't tell your voters one day that they'll have 350,000,000 more for the NHS then, when they vote for you, tell them next day it was a lie.

    The man said, with utter contempt: “THE PUBLIC WANT TO BE LIED TO.”
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • daffy2
    daffy2 Member Posts: 1,713
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    But, the woman protested, you don't tell your voters one day that they'll have 350,000,000 more for the NHS then, when they vote for you, tell them next day it was a lie.
    The tactic is common in politics especially when election time rolls round(or a referendum.....), the difference here is that the lie's been made public quickly - but still too late to be of any use, so in that respect business as usual.
    People hear what they want to hear, and so the man's reply isn't totally wide of the mark sadly. Before the immigration issue came to the fore the ongoing grumbles about the EU centred around 'interference' and the UK money contribution, so if the right people said 'if we're out of the EU then all that money will be available to spend on[insert choice, but NHS the most likely to hook the punters], that will be believed. The people saying it knew that at best it was only ever slightly true, but could safely assume that most voters would not look to verify it.
    Sorry folks, my closet cynical side has been outed.
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I voted out for many reasons, I object to being classified by media punits as 'uneducated' 'poor' or 'elderly', I am definitely outside of the London metropolitan bubble. Yes, the disconect between the political elite and the nation is very obvious and most of the time we have given them a good ignoring but there are some things that just mattered too much and the EU vote was itl

    Let us now move on in a positive manner in the direction that democracy has taken us, the world is not falling to pieces, we have just made a political decision to move away from integration in the EU, thats it.
  • dreamdaisy
    dreamdaisy Member Posts: 31,558
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    In my opinion the only politician to emerge with a small amount of credit is DC: he wanted us to remain and has correctly stated that, because of that conviction, he is the wrong person to steer this slightly listing ship. He gambled, lost and has done the right thing. The Spouse was grumbling that we will be under the 'rule' of an un-elected prime minister but zipped it when I said that the same had happened with Blair/Brown.

    Of course politicians lie, they don't play the political game for our benefit do they? They may start out with high ideals (as do many new recruits to professions) but once they realise what is there for them to snuffle up . . . . well, who could resist? The MEPs are some of the worst offenders - now that particular trough is going to run dry and about time too. For what it's worth I think all the party leaders have lost touch with the electorate and all, no matter what 'colour' (including Farage) has received a shock.

    I note the stock market rallied after the initial drops - surprise surprise. Success won't be measured in hours, days, or weeks: we're in for the long-haul but aren't we always? (Especially us arthritics!) DD
    Have you got the despatches? No, I always walk like this. Eddie Braben
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I have just been listening to a load of tripe on the radio, youngsters claiming we (the 'others') have sold them down the river, well youngsters need to understand that they live in a democratic country and that is what has just happened.

    There is even a twitter page asking for another vote because we so got it wrong, they seem to think that anyone over the age of 21 should have voted the way they, the youngsters, wanted, because they are who they are. As if twitter counts for anything in this world, just a load of software owned by a private company.

    Ok ok, rant over.....
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,280
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    This isn't just a twitter thing, Airwave. It's an official petition on the parliament site https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/131215 and, because it has reached over 1,500,000 signatures parliament must consider it for debate. (Officially, to be considered for debate, petitions only require 100,000.)

    I shall not be signing it as I believe a result is a result, however close, but I do feel sorry for young people who stand to lose far more than us older members of the electorate. In my day people could reasonably expect to have a job for life and that would be enough to get a mortgage. We also had free higher education and maintenance grants which was how so many of us became the first people in our families ever to get to university.

    Younger people have none of these now. I don't know what percentage of them voted. I know, traditionally, politicians try to appeal to us older ones simply because we're more likely to vote. If the turnout, among the young, was low then they will have learned the hard way that every vote counts.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • applerose
    applerose Member Posts: 3,621
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I think DC did the right thing resigning. He couldn't have helped us through this as he didn't believe it was what was best for our country. Daffy is right that people hear what they want to hear. The £350m was only given to the EU on paper. We got a rebate and a lot of money back which was used on things other than the NHS so there is no way that amount of money could be given to the NHS now. There is more immigration from outside the EU so I don't think there will be much change to that. UK officials were allowed to check immigrants in Calais and stop them coming to the UK. Now France has said we have to take back our border, these immigrants will be allowed in to the UK and we will have to deal with them here. I think the reason the young people are upset is that it was mostly over 60s who wanted to leave. They only have about 15 years to be out of the EU. The youngsters will have up to 70 years of it. But, as has been said, the vote is cast and the results in. We have to pull together to get down the rocky road ahead however long it takes.
    Christine
  • Ladybrown
    Ladybrown Member Posts: 130
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I think we have to expect a lot of unhappiness about the result - it was so close that almost half the population and disappointed/worried etc. We are in very uncertain times and I do think I have seen bad behaviour on both sides - from calling leave voters names to a bit of gloating and 'just get over it' to remain voters.
    We face a difficult time in the run-up to exit because nobody actually knows what will happen. I voted remain but haven't signed the petition for a second referendum. The first one was damaging enough to the national psyche. What I think it most important is that we pull together to try to ameliorate the damage and try to put a stop to all the awful stories of racist abuse that have surfaced. What should have been an economic argument was hijacked with fear-mongering and when you see stories in the news of Polish children being frightened by people telling them to 'go home' and notes pushed through doors, I am ashamed of our people. My colleague had to comfort a sobbing 17 year old Polish student on Friday who was terrified she would be deported. This is the immediate cost (of the campaigns rather than the vote).

    Incidentally I think Cameron did right to step down. Let someone who was pro-Brexit negotiate departure. If it's a success, it should be theres, and if it's a mess they should own that too.
  • Slosh
    Slosh Member Posts: 3,194
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I voted to Remain and was really upset and saddened when I heard the result.
    When I went to work there was an awful atmosphere in school, not only do we have many pupils from European countries, and I must say that the Roma families whether they are from Poland or Romania are amongst the most loving and close knit families I have met, but also a number of staff, teachers, TAs amd MDAs from various countries in the EU. Some have been working in England for many years, some just for a couple. All felt very hurt and felt that they had been rejected by the British people. I felt ashamed to be British.
    They now feel uncertain about what the future holds for them.

    As a school leader, knowing about the difficulties in recruiting staff I also worry about what the future implications maybe.

    I would really like to know from a BREXITER what I can say to these friends and colleagues.
    He did not say you will not be storm tossed, you will not be sore distressed, you will not be work weary. He said you will not be overcome.
    Julian of Norwich
  • theresak
    theresak Member Posts: 1,998
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    We had a postal vote, knowing we'd be on holiday for the referendum. The day after the result we went into breakfast in our French hotel & felt all eyes upon us.Monsieur le patron I is fearful that if we make a success of Brexit, Le Pen will use that to become stronger.

    We are currently in Austria, where people seem astonished at the result - they fear the break-up of the whole EU.

    On Monday we head for Germany - no doubt to more raised eyebrows. It's quite a talking point.
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Re the youngsters, one man one vote and the vote was to leave the EU, what could have been fairer. To disqualify votes from elder people would have been ridiculous and unfair, we all hold a right to vote and be heard. If the vote had gone the other way we would have accepted it. Yes parliament may have to debate a petition but will not refuse the will of 17.5m voters.

    The world has not changed, GB has made a decision to change the way it is governed, we will still wake up and eat our cornflakes, go to work and in two years time our government will be in charge of our destiney not the EU.

    Yes there will be changes to our future but these will evolve and our future is bright, we won't turn our backs on Europe but hold our hands out to the rest of the world, what we should have been doing for a long time not concentrating on Europe.

    Incidentally, who will eger trust a poll again?
  • dreamdaisy
    dreamdaisy Member Posts: 31,558
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Nothing will change overnight (apart from the Labour Party imploding which is an unexpected bonus) because leaving will be a long process: as I saw it the UK was never an enthusiastic member of the Common Market (which we joined and then became the EU) and for good reason: we are separated (albeit by a fragile margin) from that land mass.

    Being the nation we are I have no doubt that those who have been here for some time, worked and paid their way will be able to stay - as indeed they should. The world hasn't ended, it's changed. Time will tell whether it's for the better or not. DD
    Have you got the despatches? No, I always walk like this. Eddie Braben
  • Airwave!
    Airwave! Member Posts: 2,427
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    I've just got round to finishing the Saturday Telegraph and was reminded of the two previous occasions when we were refused membership of the EU ( 1963 and 1967), pity we didn't take the hint then.

    Pity that our government didn't make any contingency plans, downright arrogant to treat the electorate with distain as it turned out.

    :cheers:
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,280
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    Airwave, why are you still grumbling when you actually got what you wanted :wink:

    Yes, the government should have had a Brexit plan but, even more so, those leading the Brexit campaign, Mssrs Johnson and Gove, should have had one.

    Instead, they tried to avoid responsibility by getting Cameron to do the negotiating (despite his failure pre-referendum) while they hung back to absolve themselves from blame and then offer themselves as next party leader which, in Boris' case, I suspect the whole Brexit campaign was actually about.

    DD – 'nothing has changed overnight' if you are a white person with no foreign accent. Last night's local news was scary. A Latvian said he'd been angrily told, in the street, to get out of the country every day since the referendum and a middle-aged white man was confidently and aggressively expecting all Muslims to be deported.

    These, like Slosh's and Ladybrown's examples of what is happening in their schools, are the extremes but the xenophobic hatred that has been generated and, to some extent given permission, will not just go away.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran
  • dreamdaisy
    dreamdaisy Member Posts: 31,558
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    One can never account for the moronic in the populace, we too have had local accounts of 'furriners' being approached, sworn at, nasty notes left in various places and, because I would not do such a thing, I find it appalling that others can and feel that it's OK to do so. I can only conclude that their intellect is somewhat smaller than their shoe size. The east of England will be particularly affected, the farmers rely heavily on foreign labour because the indigenous population don't want to spend backbreaking hours in fields picking things. A friend of mine who runs a construction firm is devastated by the vote as his best (and most reliable builders) are Polish, some have been employed by him for over 15 years.

    I suppose DC et al didn't need to plan because they assumed the status quo would remain. I guess BoJo and Gove didn't bother because they could think no further than June 23rd and probably secretly doubted that they would win. They have bigger intellects than the morons but, as often happens with stronger male brains, an inability to cope with the mundane details of life features quite highly: Boris is especially known for not dealing with details regarding them as piffling nonsense, but as we all know, the devil is in the detail. Wot larks, Pip! DD
    Have you got the despatches? No, I always walk like this. Eddie Braben
  • stickywicket
    stickywicket Member Posts: 26,280
    edited 30. Nov -1, 00:00
    You are quite right, DD. We seem to have sown the wind and reaped the whirlwind.

    There is no doubt that many votes were simply protests by people who, rightly, feel they have been consistently disregarded and disenfranchised by successive governments. 'Europe' and 'foreigners' are easy targets.

    We must now all live with the result.
    "The deeper sorrow carves into your being the more joy you can contain." Kahlil Gibran